Re: transformation equations

On Sep 20, 6:10�pm, "Spaceman" <space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 5:21?pm, "Spaceman" <space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 4:18?pm, "Spaceman" <space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 4:01?pm, "Spaceman"
<space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 3:21?pm, "Spaceman"
<space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 3:04?pm, "Spaceman"
<space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 1:33?pm, "Spaceman"
<space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 12:49?pm, "Spaceman"
<space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
On Sep 20, 8:21 am, "Spaceman"
<space...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
Not as much, it would appear, as you do. ?You come to
me with a mathematics problem, I solve it, and you
say that you do not want to discuss mathematics any
more. ?Spaceman comes to me with a mathematics
problem, I solve it, and Spaceman does not talk to me
any more. ?You and Spaceman seem just alike to me.

Dear Robert
You did not solve the math I asked you to do.
You prove you need to revert to imaginary math and
also can have a multiple answer to the square root of
1. 1 or -1 can be the answer.
How do you call two mathematical answers for the same
mathematical problem as logical?
Logics in basic math have one answer... not two.

The only problem you gave me was (-4)(-4). ?I explained
it. ?The answer is 16. ?I will go through it briefly
again. ?If you have a set of Cartesian coordinates, then
on the x axis, negative values are to the left of the
origin, and positive values are to the right of the
origin. ?So -4 is four units to the left of the origin.
?If you multiply a number by -1, it moves the number to
the other side of the origin.

If -4 is to the left then so is - 1
Why are you changing the minus to the right?

Well, let me go through all of the possibilities again.
?First of all, you can have a positive number times a
positive number. ?(1)(1)=1 Second, you can have a negative
number times a positive number. ?If you have a +1 and
multiply it by a -1, it moves to the opposite side of the
origin. ?(1)(-1)=(-1)

Robert,
You need to give a logical reason for having an east
direction being multiplied by a west direction.
What logical reason would you do such to justify a -1 times
a 1 at all?

Think of it as a change in polarity.

It is not a change of polarity.

So
left 4 times left 4 should be left 16.
Nope. ?Multiplying by a negative number changes the sign.

There is no physical reason it should
Again
You have
4 missing piles
4 missing objects from each pile.
16 missing object.
No physical reason to jump the 0 line at all.

Simple and as logical as that.
No rights come from multiplying lefts.-

If you have a -5 and multiply it by 4, the answer is -20.
?It is the same as adding four(-5)'s together.

Please give an example that you are multiplying 5 missing
objects times 4 non missing objects.
Again,
You are not using such physically and instead just jumping
to the mathematical illogic of jumping the 0.

If you have a (-5) and multiply it by (-4), it is the same
as multiplying it by (-1)(4), meaning that the -1 changes
the sign on the -5, making it 5, then you add four 5's
together.

No -5 times -4 is the same as multiplying 5 time 4 but on
the other side of the river called 0.
5 times 4 and all occuring on the negative side produces
20 on the negative side so -5 times -4 = -20.
You have no physical reasoning to jump the 0.
As I said.
oranges and apples.
Multiplying oranges does not give apples.
Oranges | | | | | | | 0 | | | | | | | Apples.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Well do what you want to do. ?If you have ?5 East and
multiply it by 1 then you nave 5 East. ?If you multiply it
by -1 then you have 5 west. That is the way it has always
been done.

I know how it has always been done.
The problem is such a way is illogical.
As I said,
Multiplying one side by the other side makes no physical
sense at all.
Oranges time apples is just silly.
And so is multiplying a negative times a postitive
or east times west, etc..
And the best part about my method is there is no imganiary
square root answers needed for "oranges" or negatives.
:)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, that is fine. ?I don't see how oranges and apples relate
to distances in relativity.

As I said.
An orange can be considered the distance eastward and an apple
could be considered distance westward or the opposite if you
wish. Removing the apples and oranges you are still left with
east times east equals west.
and that is wrong.
Just as east times west should not equal anything because such
is also wrong.
Multiplying one direction times another is physically not gonna
happen in reality.
There is no physical reason ever to mulltiply an east moving
distance times a west moving distance.
Just as there is no physical reason to ever multiply oranges
times apples.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How do you plan to show velocities?

What situation do you multiply a negative direction times
a positive direction in reality?

The multiplication factor is actually "unitless" and therefore
it never actually has a negative sign or a postive sign and the
end result is that you keep the direction you started with, so
if you said multiply 4 east (-4) times 4 the unitless 4 is still
actually
an eastward motion (-4) and when you multiply eastward you
increase eastwardly, not west so you get (-16) = 16 east.
So multiplying eastward increases eastward, and multiplying
westward increases westward.
Again.
The simple way to do such is know there are no real negatives.-
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- Show quoted text -

Well, OK, so suppose you have a truck going 30 miles per hour, and
someone on the bed of the truck throws a baseball back in the
direction the truck came from at a speed of 50 miles per hour.
?What is the velocity of the baseball?

First it would have nothing to do with "multiplication"
so simple subtraction works fine.
30 truck speed towards lets say east minus 50 west would mean
20 west.
Just like it says in basic math
(+30) - (+50) = -(+20)
The velocity would simply be 20 positive mph in the west direction
called negative.
Or do you think the speed would be a true "negative speed"
wrt the ground?
How can you do negative speed wrt the ground?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, I just wanted to see how you were doing it with respect to
apples and oranges. ?Speed is the magnitude of velocity. ?Speed is
the same regardless of the direction of movement. ?It is always
positive. ? ? ?What it appears to me you are doing is saying
velocity is always speed by using apples and oranges instead of a
set of Cartesian coordinates.

How can velocity prove a negative velocity?
On frame says it is moving towards the other,
The other says it is moving towards the other.
How can either velocity be truly negative?
Who gets to choose being the negative motion?
As I am really saying, There is no "real" negatives in reality.
Show me 100 negative feet away, and I will say you are
postitive 100 ft away.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, that is all well and good, but Cartesian coordinates do work.

I never said nor think they do not work.
I merely do not need negatives as "reals" and all negatives are
simply positives in the other direction.

The way Einstein had it set up, he had a set of Cartesian coordinates
S' in motion relative to a set of Cartesian coordinates at rest S with
velocity v. �Einstein specified in his example that the velocity of S
was positive relative to S. �Then the basic idea of his theory turned
on the fact that from S', S' could be considered to be at rest, and S
could be considered to be moving with a velocity of v'=(-v) relative
to S'. �So from frame of reference S', an observer would see S moving
toward the west or in the direction of oranges, or whatever you want
to call it if S' was moving toward apples or east relative to S. �But
with regard to Cartesian coordinates, Einstein said S' was moving
along the x axis in the positive x direction relative to S, which
seemed to be a good enough description to me.

When Einstein confused motion of the "coordinate system" with
motion of the object in a coordinate system, he created all sorts
of paradox bologna with time dilation, he then had to add his
"length contraction bologna" to fix the math that did not work
with time dilation alone.

When on uses absolute time, absolute space, relative speed of light.
Not one paradox appears.
When one starts using "real" negatives, one is not even using
"physical reality" anymore at all.
And of course, finding a square root of a negative by using
the "imaginary" methods is again leaving the reality of the physical.
If multiplication of 2 negatives equaled a negative, no imaginary
anything need be and it all works out fine even when a square
root problem shows up with a negative number needing to be
resolved.
.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't see where you are coming up with these imaginary numbers. An
imaginary number is defined as the square root of a negative number,
which does not exist because a negative number can only result from
multiplication of a positive number by a negative number.
Robert B. Winn
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: transformation equations
    ... ?Spaceman comes to me with a mathematics problem, ... ?Multiplying by a negative number changes the sign. ... Multiplying oranges does not give apples. ... The velocity would simply be 20 positive mph in the west direction ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: transformation equations
    ... say that you do not want to discuss mathematics any ... ?Multiplying by a negative number changes the sign. ... Multiplying oranges does not give apples. ... The velocity would simply be 20 positive mph in the west direction ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: transformation equations
    ... ?Spaceman comes to me with a mathematics problem, ... ?Multiplying by a negative number changes the sign. ... Multiplying oranges does not give apples. ... The velocity would simply be 20 positive mph in the west direction ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: transformation equations
    ... ?Multiplying by a negative number changes the sign. ... Multiplying oranges does not give apples. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: transformation equations
    ... fine without you as is math and physics. ... I have thought about the mathematics. ... You have no "physical" reason for multiplying a negative direction ... Even having 2 answers for one square root is illogical. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
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