Re: Muon Decay Experiments

On Jan 15, 8:47 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jan 15, 7:23 am, kenseto <kens...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On Jan 14, 10:26 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jan 14, 8:20 am, kenseto <kens...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jan 14, 9:10 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jan 14, 7:36 am, kenseto <kens...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Ken, you made a general statement that an observer can ONLY measure an
object from its rest frame by riding on the object with a clock. This
statement applies, according to you, to ANYTHING, including cars,
bullets, balls, and muons. Now you feel a little foolish making that
statement about cars and you want to, for some reason, make that
statement only for muons. If it is a foolish statement for cars, then
it is a foolish statement for bullets, balls, and muons, no?

No we are talking about your assertions:
1. muon A measures its decay time is 2 us and it measures a fast
moving muon B to have a decay time of 20 us.
2. muon B measures its decay time is 2us and it measures muon A to
have a decay time of 20 us.
Then you argued that there is experimental support for your
contradictory assertions. I said that there is no such experimental
support for both of your assertions...There is experimental support
for assertion (1) but not assertion (2).

That is incorrect, Ken. This may be because you are only familiar with
cosmic ray muon experiments, because your contact with the
experimental literature is limited to what you've read in a chapter of
a freshman physics text. Muons have been studied in literally
*hundreds* of experiments that have nothing to do with cosmic rays,
and their behavior is very well understood. In fact, it is quite
routine to *create* a beam of muons and study their behavior in detail
in earth-bound laboratories.

Hey idiot....all these experiments are based on the lab clock's point
of view. There is no experiment from the fast moving muon point of
view.

That's incorrect, Ken. Sometimes the lab moves with the muon, in an
interesting and novel way.
But I see you have this mental image that labs are always tied to the
Earth and the Earth is always the "slow" frame and never the "fast"
frame, and so all measurements are actually done from the slow frame.
Is this what you think, Ken?

Hey idiot the muon moves at 99% of c how do you do any measurement
from the muon point of view?

By arranging a small laboratory that moves along with the muon, so
that the muon does not have any velocity relative to the small
laboratory that is measuring it. This involves some imagination and
some careful planning and execution, but it is certainly feasible and
has in fact been done.

So how do you move the small lab to a velocity of .99 c? The question
is not measuring the muon along the side of the small lab. The
question is what the small lab (moving at .99c) measures the decay
time of the large lab muon which is at rest in the large lab.

Ken Seto


Your ignorance of experimental methodology is profound. This may have
something to do with the fact that your reading is confined to what is
in a freshman level physics textbook, where there is one chapter
devoted to relativity.





Ken Seto

You really think that no measurements (in tests of relativity) have
ever been done in the fast frame?

PD

I said that the only way to
confirm assertion (2) experimentally is to have an observer with a
clock riding along with muon B and such experiment is not possible
with current technology.

That is simply wrong, Ken. I'm sorry that you have such a poor grasp
of what's been done with current technology. It is quite possible
(expensive and requiring great care but certainly possible) to do an
experiment that watches muons from two reference frames.

No idiot...not from a fast mvoing muon's point of view.

Ken Seto

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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Muon Decay Experiments
    ... object from its rest frame by riding on the object with a clock. ... moving muon B to have a decay time of 20 us. ... is not measuring the muon along the side of the small lab.. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Muon Decay Experiments
    ... moving muon B to have a decay time of 20 us. ... frame, and so all measurements are actually done from the slow frame. ... is not measuring the muon along the side of the small lab. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Muon Decay Experiments
    ... object from its rest frame by riding on the object with a clock. ... moving muon B to have a decay time of 20 us. ... frame, and so all measurements are actually done from the slow frame. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Muon Decay Experiments
    ... object from its rest frame by riding on the object with a clock. ... moving muon B to have a decay time of 20 us. ... frame, and so all measurements are actually done from the slow frame. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Muon Decay Experiments
    ... object from its rest frame by riding on the object with a clock. ... moving muon B to have a decay time of 20 us. ... frame, and so all measurements are actually done from the slow frame. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)