Re: Time dilation #2

On Apr 11, 9:45 pm, bill <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 12, 12:49 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Apr 8, 9:28 pm, bill <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

My previous thread, although active, was buried on the basis, I
assume, that it was becoming disruptive so let's see if this one gets
the same treatment.

I realize that it is similar to my previous post however I am
attempting to 'keep things as simple as possible'.

It also provides additional ammunition for resident manure spreaders
to ‘prove’ their superior intellect. They don’t need to thank me.

A person is located on a mountain top and is looking at a (very large)
clock (B) at sea-level.

He notices that clock B is ticking over at a slower rate than his own
clock (A) as theorized by Einstein in general theory and as ratified
by the Wallops Island experiment where a clock at sea-level, being
located in a strong gravitational tidal area, will tick over at a
slower rate than an identical clock on top of a mountain that is in a
weaker gravitational tidal area.

Is he entitled to be of the opinion that if he were to move to sea-
level his clock would be subjected to the same 'law' of physics thus
it will then be ticking over at a slower rate than it is before he
starts his descent?

He moves to sea-level and although his clock's rate of operation (i.e..
it’s ‘proper rate) has seemingly remained unchanged (as has his heart-
beat rate and mental processes which are also affected by his now
being located in a stronger gravitational tidal area) however this
does not alter the fact that he and his clock are now in a stronger
gravitational tidal area than they were on top of the mountain thus
his clock is ticking over at a slower rate than it was before he
descended.

It matters not if the mountaintop observer is looking at this
phenomenon from a ‘minkowskian curved spacetime’ perspective or a
‘euclidian space and time’ point of view; he will see the sea-level
clock ticking over at a slower rate than his own clock.

I think the point others have been trying to make is, how do you
determine if your own clock starts running slower? If you think about
it, the only way to do that is to compare the clock's tick rate
against something else local. But in the present case, this would
reveal nothing, because *everything* local would slow as you descended
from the mountaintop. Since everything local slows, you've got nothing
that would serve as a standard by which you could tell your local
clock is slowing.

I am initially on a mountaintop; I 'see' a clock at sea-level that is
ticking over at a slower rate than my clock.

On the basis that there is nothing wrong with that clock I assume that
something - some 'law' of physics - has created this variation in the
physical rates of operation of the clocks and realize that it complies
with the idea that a clock that is located at sea-level will, being in
a stronger gravitational tidal area, tick over at a slower rate than
an identical clock (mine) on top of a mountain.

Whilst still on the mountaintop I am of the opinion that if I send one
of my several, synchronous, clocks to sea-level it, too, will then be
ticking over at a slower rate than my clock; that the same 'law' of
physics that causes the sea-level clock to tick over at a slower rate
than my clock WILL EQUALLY APPLY to my dispatched clock.

I send that clock to sea-level and find that my prediction was
correct; that this clock is then ticking over at a slower rate than my
clock ergo is ticking over at a slower rate than it WAS when it was at
my location.

I decide to descend the mountain with the certain knowledge
(empirically determined) that my clock will also tick over at a slower
rate than it does at present as did the clock that I previously
dispatched.

I am of the opinion that the 'law' of physics which caused that
dispatched clock to tick over at a slower rate than it was before it
left the mountaintop will also apply to my clock!

I arrive at sea-level whereupon I note that a clock that has remained
on top of the mountain is ticking over at a different rate than my own
clock.

I can either assume that the mountaintop clock has started ticking
FASTER than it was before I descended OR intelligently realize that it
is MY clock that has (all appearances to the contrary) slowed down as
did the previously dispatched clock.

The problem with this scheme is that it presumes that the elevated
clock has not had anything happen to it, and that the sea-level clock
has had something happen to it. One could equally well argue that
something has happened to the elevated clock, and that the dispatched
clocks have that effect *removed* from them, so that when they are at
the bottom, they are untainted.

The fundamental problem is that you cannot physically distinguish
between your hypothesis and mine, and so it is pointless, really, to
ask which of the two clocks (the elevated one or the sea-level one) is
the one that is in the altered state.

As another example, consider two observations: The kinetic energy of a
railroad car at 2:48 pm is 0 J. The kinetic energy of the same car at
3:02pm is 13589 J. Now, does one conclude that something happened to
the car to increase its kinetic energy, or does one conclude that
one's observation point is now moving relative to the car?

And to carry this even further, consider the same railroad car
observed from two different reference frames, both at 2:48 pm, where
in one frame the car's energy is 0 J, and in the other frame the car's
energy is 13589 J. Does comparing the measurements in both frames mean
that energy is actually being removed or added to the car? By what?

PD
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Time dilation
    ... accordance with the results of the Wallops Island experiment his clock ... is then ticking over at a slower rate than it was before he moved down ... : the mountain. ... why I *provided* that analogy! ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time dilation #2
    ... A person is located on a mountain top and is looking at a ... He notices that clock B is ticking over at a slower rate than his own ... weaker gravitational tidal area. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time dilation #2
    ... A person is located on a mountain top and is looking at a ... He notices that clock B is ticking over at a slower rate than his own ... weaker gravitational tidal area. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time dilation
    ... accordance with the results of the Wallops Island experiment his clock ... is then ticking over at a slower rate than it was before he moved down ... : the mountain. ... why I *provided* that analogy! ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time dilation #2
    ...  he will see the sea-level clock ticking over at a slower rate than his own clock. ... gravitational tidal area than they were on top of the mountain thus ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
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