Re: Time dilation #2


"bill" <cosmosco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:7615f4c1-a6f8-48ab-83b1-31008e9bbaa4@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Apr 19, 9:13 pm, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
"bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:7dc7f046-e18b-44f7-8647-0189b373cefd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> On Apr 16, 5:08 am, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>> "bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

>>news:ff752cd2-c5cf-4ba6-b4ce-7bc915c73e94@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> In the first leg of the Hafele-Keating experiment - did the clocks in
> the aircraft tick over at a slower rate than the laboratory clocks?

That experiment was very complex, concerning different aircrafts and it
mixes both the effects of speed and height;

: Whilst that experiment was somewhat complex Clifford Will simplifies
: same pointing out that the only relevant factor in relation to the
: time dilation concept was 'speed' thus that the clocks in the aircraft
: are 'ticking even more slowly' than the clocks in the laboratory.

That's mistaken, but it may well be that the *difference* between the groups of clocks was mainly due to the difference in speeds.

: Please answer my question - in *your* opinion did the clocks in the
: aircraft tick over at a slower rate than the laboratory clocks?

- Often the effect of height is greater than the effect of speed; thus I cannot say anything about a comparison between those groups of clocks.
- For identical flight records, the clocks that were flown against the direction of the earth's rotation should on the average have been ticking slower than the clocks that were flown with the rotation of the earth. As far as I recall, that's also what they found, although with a very high margin of error.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[former conversation from earlier thread]

Note: as I already offered you a paper that explains everything you ask and better than I could here, I won't anymore go in many details.

> You wrote "...the answer is easier and simpler..." that is precisely
> why I *provided* that analogy!

Good! And I hope that you also understand the reason why - we are able to
determine our acceleration in an absolute sense, but not our speed.

: A person is located in a windowless room in outer space. In accordance
: with the PoR there is no internal dynamic experiment that he can carry
: out in order to determine if the room is moving with uniform velocity
: or if it is stationary.

: He moves to the flight deck and sees the universe seemingly appear to
: be static as do we if we glance up at the night sky.

: He flicks a switch energizing his main drive system and applies the go
: pedal; after a period of time he sees the the stars and galaxies in
: front of the ship flashing toward him at almost the speed of light
: whilst those behind the ship are receding at the same speed.

: I am of the opinion that he is entitled (having engaged his drive
: system and accelerated same) to be of the opinion that the ship is now
: moving at the speed of light away from the point in space where he
: first engaged the main drive system.

: He flicks the switch to shut down his main drive system at which very
: instant he observes no change whatsoever in the light emitted by those
: stars and galaxies.

: He returns to the previously mentioned windowless room and repeats the
: same internal dynamic experiments with the same results; none of them
: indicate that the ship is moving.

: He goes back to the flight deck and again notices that the distant
: stars and galaxies are moving past him at near light-speed.

: Is he not likely to assume, irrespective of unsuccessful attempts to
: determine the state of motion of the ship whilst in the enclosed room,
: that the ship is still moving?

The ship is certainly still moving at high speed relative to the stars. And IF he next assumes (based on some kind of reasoning) that the average speed of the stars corresponds to "absolute rest", THEN he can conclude that he is moving fast in some absolute sense.

: Alternately - does he believe that at the very instant he closed the
: door after entering the enclosed room that the ship stopped moving and
: that the universe was subjected to a force greater than infinite and
: it is now moving at near-light speed whilst the ship remains
: stationary?

I have no idea why you would think that anyone would suggest such a thing...

: I appreciate that a special-theory-type observer born from a test tube
: in a windowless room and nurtured by the room or an astronaut who is
: placed in suspended animation prior to take off from the Earth could
: be of the opinion that the ship is not moving but a highly-qualified,
: intelligent astronaut who accelerates his ship being of the same
: opinion? I can't see it happening.

> In the principle of equivalence related stronger gravitational tidal
> area of the GRT analogy his slower clock is identical to his slower
> clock created by increased centripetal acceleration in the SRT
> depiction.

[...] Centripetal acceleration itself does not change clock speed in SRT
(nor in GRT).

: Whilst I appreciate that neither SRT nor GRT suggests that centripetal
: acceleration does have an affect on a clock's rate of operation I am
: of the opinion that an observer located in a windowless room that is
: moving in a closed curve could (as shown by the PoE) be of the opinion
: that he is at rest on the surface of a mass.

: If he increases his speed yet maintains the same curved path he could
: be of the opinion that the mass on which the room is located has
: undergone an increase in it's gravitational field strength (or the
: room has moved further down a mountain or that it has moved from the
: surface of a moon to the surface of a planet).

I already answered that.

: Although he would not be aware of the fact his clock would then be
: ticking over at a slower rate it was before his speed increased as
: would the Hafele-Keating clocks had they been aboard a high-speed
: military aircraft.

> He carries out internal dynamic experiments which show him that he IS
> accelerating in precisely the same way (PoE) that he would if he were
> located at a fixed distance from an intense gravitational field.

The PoE works well locally, as long as he does not realise what really is
going on. So, if you mean that he can *fool* himself into *thinking* what
you want him to think, I fully agree.

: That, my lad, is an insult!

I'm not your lad and I'm certain that it's correct - no insult here.

> His clock will, progressively as his centripetal acceleration rate
> increases, tick over at slower and slower rates in precisely the same
> way as it does as he moves into progressively stronger gravitational
> tidal areas as he moves down the mountain.

Let's make (in a last effort) the "relatively moving" inertial frame picture
more tangible. Your statement would be true if for example time dilation is
due to an ether

: Let's make a last effort - please respond to that comment and PLEASE
: do not refer to 'an ether'.

You snipped my last effort and earlier you already snipped the means to understand it all. Thus you really don't want to hear it - I have been wasting my time.

[snip the same]

Good luck,
Harald

.

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