Re: Time dilation #2

On Apr 21, 6:17 am, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
"bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On Apr 19, 9:13 pm, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:

"bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On Apr 16, 5:08 am, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
"bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

: Whilst that experiment was somewhat complex Clifford Will simplifies
: same pointing out that the only relevant factor in relation to the
: time dilation concept was 'speed' thus that the clocks in the aircraft
: are 'ticking even more slowly' than the clocks in the laboratory.

That's mistaken, but it may well be that the *difference* between the groups
of clocks was mainly due to the difference in speeds.

*What* 'is mistaken'? Will's comments or my interpretation of same?

Will points out that "the only relevant factor in relation to the time
dilation concept was 'speed'" and you suggest as if it were some
determination of your own "...that the *difference* between the groups
of clocks was mainly due to the difference in speeds."

: Please answer my question - in *your* opinion did the clocks in the
: aircraft tick over at a slower rate than the laboratory clocks?

- Often the effect of height is greater than the effect of speed; thus I
cannot say anything about a comparison between those groups of clocks.

Will's *specifically* points out that the effect of height (i.e.
gravitational time variation) is allowed for *and removed from* the
determinations leaving *only* the effect of speed.

- For identical flight records, the clocks that were flown against the
direction of the earth's rotation should on the average have been ticking
slower than the clocks that were flown with the rotation of the earth. As
far as I recall, that's also what they found, although with a very high
margin of error.

Your 'recollection' is erroneous!

The clocks that were flown against the direction of the Earth's
rotation were ticking FASTER than the clocks that were flown with the
rotation of the Earth.

The ship is certainly still moving at high speed relative to the stars. And
IF he next assumes (based on some kind of reasoning) that the average speed
of the stars corresponds to "absolute rest", THEN he can conclude that he is
moving fast in some absolute sense.

There is *absolutely no requirement whatsoever* for him to assume that
the average speeds of the stars corresponds to "absolute rest'!

He is, initially, at rest; he accelerates to near light-speed then
cuts his engines at which instant he is still moving at near light-
speed relative to his location before he started moving.

: Alternately - does he believe that at the very instant he closed the
: door after entering the enclosed room that the ship stopped moving and
: that the universe was subjected to a force greater than infinite and
: it is now moving at near-light speed whilst the ship remains
: stationary?

I have no idea why you would think that anyone would suggest such a thing...

I do not merely *think* that anyone would suggest such a thing but
have been informed by *many* people in, and external to, physics
groups and have read many other comments by so-called 'intelligent'
relevantly qualified people that an astronaut looking at stars and
galaxies that appear to be moving past him at near light-speed *could*
be of the opinion - on the basis of the principle of relativity - that
he is stationary thus that it is the *universe* that is moving at near
-light-speed on the basis that he is unable to carry out any internal
dynamic experiment that would show him if the ship is stationary or is
moving with uniform velocity.

I have responded, where possible, to that (in my opinion solipsist
nonsense) that he would have to be of the opinion that at the very
instant that he takes his foot off the gas pedal and 'stops moving'
that the universe itself is subjected to a greater-than-infinite force
of energy that makes the entire universe starts moving. A greater-than-
infinite force that causes everything in the universe - *except his
ship* - start moving at near light-speed.

A comment that has been attributed to Einstein (which I sincerely hope
was not made by him unless it was meant as a joke) is that whilst
seated in a train watching the scenery flash by Einstein is said to
have asked "What time does the next station arrive at this carriage?"

Assuming that he did make this comment then that's a prime example of
my not merely *thinking* that someone suggested such a thing.

The PoE works well locally, as long as he does not realise what really is
going on. So, if you mean that he can *fool* himself into *thinking* what
you want him to think, I fully agree.

: That, my lad, is an insult!

I'm not your lad and I'm certain that it's correct - no insult here.

'My lad' is a form of salutation akin to 'sir' or 'my friend' and your
comment *was* an insult!

: Let's make a last effort - please respond to that comment and PLEASE
: do not refer to 'an ether'.

You snipped my last effort and earlier you already snipped the means to
understand it all. Thus you really don't want to hear it - I have been
wasting my time.

I snipped those comments because they were irrelevant and merely, as
intended, obfuscated the discussion.

You are now aware of the strength and validity of my arguments and
realize that you *have* been wasting your time by attempting to cloud
the issue but have found to your chagrin that you are unable to negate
my arguments.

As Will's pointed out, a clock that is made to travel from West to
East will tick over at a slower rate than a clock on the ground so if
I am traveling in that aircraft I am fully entitled to be of the
opinion that although my clock's rate of operation appears to have
remained unchanged - and there is no way that I can determine
otherwise - it is, in fact, ticking over at a slower rate than it was
before the flight commenced as determined by a comparison of it's rate
of operation with that of a 'stationary' clock.

I am of the opinion that if Hafele or Keating had repeated the first
leg of their experiment they could have been of the opinion that, just
as happened the first time, their clocks were then ticking over at a
slower rate than they were before the flight commenced.
.

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