Re: Time dilation #2

On Apr 19, 9:13 pm, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
"bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On Apr 16, 5:08 am, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
"bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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In the first leg of the Hafele-Keating experiment - did the clocks in
the aircraft tick over at a slower rate than the laboratory clocks?

That experiment was very complex, concerning different aircrafts and it
mixes both the effects of speed and height;

Whilst that experiment was somewhat complex Clifford Will simplifies
same pointing out that the only relevant factor in relation to the
time dilation concept was 'speed' thus that the clocks in the aircraft
are 'ticking even more slowly' than the clocks in the laboratory.

Please answer my question - in *your* opinion did the clocks in the
aircraft tick over at a slower rate than the laboratory clocks?

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You wrote "...the answer is easier and simpler..." that is precisely
why I *provided* that analogy!

Good! And I hope that you also understand the reason why - we are able to
determine our acceleration in an absolute sense, but not our speed.

A person is located in a windowless room in outer space. In accordance
with the PoR there is no internal dynamic experiment that he can carry
out in order to determine if the room is moving with uniform velocity
or if it is stationary.

He moves to the flight deck and sees the universe seemingly appear to
be static as do we if we glance up at the night sky.

He flicks a switch energizing his main drive system and applies the go
pedal; after a period of time he sees the the stars and galaxies in
front of the ship flashing toward him at almost the speed of light
whilst those behind the ship are receding at the same speed.

I am of the opinion that he is entitled (having engaged his drive
system and accelerated same) to be of the opinion that the ship is now
moving at the speed of light away from the point in space where he
first engaged the main drive system.

He flicks the switch to shut down his main drive system at which very
instant he observes no change whatsoever in the light emitted by those
stars and galaxies.

He returns to the previously mentioned windowless room and repeats the
same internal dynamic experiments with the same results; none of them
indicate that the ship is moving.

He goes back to the flight deck and again notices that the distant
stars and galaxies are moving past him at near light-speed.

Is he not likely to assume, irrespective of unsuccessful attempts to
determine the state of motion of the ship whilst in the enclosed room,
that the ship is still moving?

Alternately - does he believe that at the very instant he closed the
door after entering the enclosed room that the ship stopped moving and
that the universe was subjected to a force greater than infinite and
it is now moving at near-light speed whilst the ship remains
stationary?

I appreciate that a special-theory-type observer born from a test tube
in a windowless room and nurtured by the room or an astronaut who is
placed in suspended animation prior to take off from the Earth could
be of the opinion that the ship is not moving but a highly-qualified,
intelligent astronaut who accelerates his ship being of the same
opinion? I can't see it happening.

In the principle of equivalence related stronger gravitational tidal
area of the GRT analogy his slower clock is identical to his slower
clock created by increased centripetal acceleration in the SRT
depiction.

[...] Centripetal acceleration itself does not change clock speed in SRT
(nor in GRT).

Whilst I appreciate that neither SRT nor GRT suggests that centripetal
acceleration does have an affect on a clock's rate of operation I am
of the opinion that an observer located in a windowless room that is
moving in a closed curve could (as shown by the PoE) be of the opinion
that he is at rest on the surface of a mass.

If he increases his speed yet maintains the same curved path he could
be of the opinion that the mass on which the room is located has
undergone an increase in it's gravitational field strength (or the
room has moved further down a mountain or that it has moved from the
surface of a moon to the surface of a planet).

Although he would not be aware of the fact his clock would then be
ticking over at a slower rate it was before his speed increased as
would the Hafele-Keating clocks had they been aboard a high-speed
military aircraft.

He carries out internal dynamic experiments which show him that he IS
accelerating in precisely the same way (PoE) that he would if he were
located at a fixed distance from an intense gravitational field.

The PoE works well locally, as long as he does not realise what really is
going on. So, if you mean that he can *fool* himself into *thinking* what
you want him to think, I fully agree.

That, my lad, is an insult!

His clock will, progressively as his centripetal acceleration rate
increases, tick over at slower and slower rates in precisely the same
way as it does as he moves into progressively stronger gravitational
tidal areas as he moves down the mountain.

Let's make (in a last effort) the "relatively moving" inertial frame picture
more tangible. Your statement would be true if for example time dilation is
due to an ether

Let's make a last effort - please respond to that comment and PLEASE
do not refer to 'an ether'.

Having written “Your statement would be true...” are you insisting
that it is NOT true?
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Time dilation #2
    ... > the aircraft tick over at a slower rate than the laboratory clocks? ... time dilation concept was 'speed' thus that the clocks in the aircraft ... but it may well be that the *difference* between the groups of clocks was mainly due to the difference in speeds. ... out in order to determine if the room is moving with uniform velocity ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Einsteins 1905 paper flawed from the start.
    ... <<Observers moving with the moving rod would thus find that the two clocks ... while observers in the stationary system would ... causes the relativity of simultaneity on which the rest of SR hinges. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time dilation #2
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    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Distance-dependent time contraction
    ... >> We have two clocks A and B which are instantly at rest to each other ... Twice each orbit, they pass each other. ... > on ship A peek in the windows of ship B each time they pass and look ... when it is at the opposite side of the circle. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Einsteins Train Gedanken Re-visited
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    (sci.physics.relativity)