Re: Time dilation #2


"bill" <cosmosco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:7dc7f046-e18b-44f7-8647-0189b373cefd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Apr 16, 5:08 am, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
"bill" <cosmo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:ff752cd2-c5cf-4ba6-b4ce-7bc915c73e94@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Apr 15, 6:53 am, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@xxxxxxx>
wrote:

> Hey Bill, *some* people never understand anything that they don't > *want*
> to
> understand - perhaps that's even true for *most* people (and sorry to > say,
> it also appears to apply to you in view of your deaf ears when I > explained
> the glitch in your reasoning concerning SRT).

[snip]

On the basis that people such as yourself go to the trouble of
responding to my comments I am not in the habit of deliberately
ignoring such correspondence but make every effort to respond to
same.

Good!

[disagreement about subtleties of human psychology]

At least you are testing your skills in arguing - else you would certainly
have stopped wasting your time on continuing debates without end with
people who don't even understand what you mean!

Do you place yourself in that category

I think that's it's human but overly simplistic to categorize people for everything. Anyway, so far I pefectly understood your GRT example as it corresponds with Einstein's explanation of his reasoning; moreover, I understood the issue you have with SRT sufficiently well to give you a pertinent answer that should be helpful to you.

or are you referring to people
who, in my opinion, have no intention of trying to understand what I
am saying and deceptively take comments out of context or deliberately
refuse to answer my questions usually by snipping same ergo being able
to 'convince' themselves, and others, that I didn't ask those
questions in the first place?

I tried to keep it more general as it's really a flock of all kinds of feathers! Apart of that, I'm glad to see that you realise that you are wasting your time with them - except for some usefullness in improving your arguing skills.

If *you* don't understand what I am talking about I would prefer it if
you said so rather than suggesting that I am talking about, or
implying, something else.

************

In the first leg of the Hafele-Keating experiment - did the clocks in
the aircraft tick over at a slower rate than the laboratory clocks?

That experiment was very complex, concerning different aircrafts and it mixes both the effects of speed and height; depending on the details the correct answer should be a combination of my answer on the two effects taken seperately. It's more useful to stick to the simple examples that you presented so far. I can also send you the paper on which they based their interpretations (PDF, 2Mb) and which goes beyond "shut up and calculate". H-K who roughly understood it wrote thus:

"The answer, it now seems, is that it is only the 'fixed' (inertial)
observer - at the pole - who is entitled to hold a valid opinion about
the physical fact of the relative rates of the clocks."

Below follow my answers of last time, which you will probably understand after reading the paper that explains it far better than I could do in too little time in a NG.

Regards,
Harald

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"
[..]

You wrote "...the answer is easier and simpler..." that is precisely
why I *provided* that analogy!

Good! And I hope that you also understand the reason why - we are able to
determine our acceleration in an absolute sense, but not our speed.

In the principle of equivalence related stronger gravitational tidal
area of the GRT analogy his slower clock is identical to his slower
clock created by increased centripetal acceleration in the SRT
depiction.

[...] Centripetal acceleration itself does not change clock speed in SRT (nor in GRT).
[...]

He carries out internal dynamic experiments which show him that he IS
accelerating in precisely the same way (PoE) that he would if he were
located at a fixed distance from an intense gravitational field.

The PoE works well locally, as long as he does not realise what really is
going on. So, if you mean that he can *fool* himself into *thinking* what
you want him to think, I fully agree.

His clock will, progressively as his centripetal acceleration rate
increases, tick over at slower and slower rates in precisely the same
way as it does as he moves into progressively stronger gravitational
tidal areas as he moves down the mountain.

Let's make (in a last effort) the "relatively moving" inertial frame picture
more tangible. Your statement would be true if for example time dilation is
due to an ether (which seems to make sense, for then both are physically
"absolute" effects in the sense of "true" effets), AND the earth is all the
time stationary relative to the ether. However, the only known ether theory
that is consistent with SRT pictures the earth as moving through the ether
(like a kind of moving but contained wave). Thus, according to such an
absolute picture according to which clocks are physically just as "truly"
affected by speed as by gravitation, your observer is mistaken and the
victim of an illusion - just as an observer on the earth who forgets about
his "absolute" speed according to Newton's theory.

[..]
"

.

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