Re: Einstein's Train Gedanken Re-visited

On Jun 24, 9:38 pm, "Whoever" <no...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:b044dd85-4e58-44f2-a2ba-f20bb13d94b6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





On Jun 24, 1:20 am, "Whoever" <no...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dcf2a5b6-21b5-4d0f-bd5b-0ff69cf82776@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jun 23, 10:54 pm, "Whoever" <no...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:2939b7dd-20fb-43d8-9210-3f346f67e78f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
For starters what you proposed and what you described were not the
same thing.
Yes .. they are
Your discription still had the clock(s) moving on the
earth's surface.
No .. it clearly didn't. Only one of them.
Ok, I'll grant you that. I misinterperted what you were saying.
That's ok .. glad we cleared that up
==>> >> So .. what would happen if we moved the clocks apart at the
same
speed
according to the (almost) inertial frame of the center of the
earth.
So
(for example) the one moving with the earth would stay 'still'
(relative
to
the earth) and the other one move away at twice the speed of
earth's
rotation in the opposite direction.
==
See there "the one moving with the earth would stay 'still' (relative
to
the
earth) "
So they are still moving along curved paths in the
ECI system.
Yes they are
Combine that with the fact that even the ECI system is
not truly inertial and it becomes very unlikely that the effects
will
cancel out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Centered_Inertial
"It should be noted that ECI frames are not truly inertial since the
Earth itself is accelerating as it travels in its orbit about the
Sun."
Grr ... Picky .. so the only affect is due to the movement of the
earth
around the sun and the sun around galactic core, and whatever
non-inertial
movement the galaxy may have.
So .. ignoring those effects .. treating the ECI as inertial for the
sake
of
this thought experiment .. (which seemed to be obvious from context,
but
I
see we need to make it explicit) what do you claim about the clocks as
described?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I thought the whole purpose of this exercise was to get clocks in sync
without using light signals so that a real world experiment could be
done to measure one way light speed isotropy.
Yeup .. this would be one way to do it .. moving one way westward with
the
appropriate speed would keep it in sync.
Or ... put both clocks on a train heading west at the appropriate speed ,
and do mutual clock transport there and they'd be in sync and the train
frame would then be (close to) inertial. Again, we're ignoring here the
orbit of the earth, perturbations from other bodies, movement of sun
around
galaxy etc. its pretty much impossible to get a perfectly inertial frame
..
and that a suitable train and track (or plane) would be very impractical
:)
The plane sounds like the best idea so far. It could be done. And
according to SR the clocks should stay in sync as they are moved
apart, and when moved slowly still be in sync when brought back
together.
But once again we are using an assumption of SR to come to that
conclusion. LET says that the clocks go out of sync when apart but
return to being in sync when brought back together.
Well .. LET always says two things. What we measure and observe as
happening (which is reality as far as we are concerned) and what REALLY
really is happening in the ether frame (which is not reality as far as we
are concerned).

LET does say that we need clocks synced as per SR to make a measurement that
is valid for our frame of reference. BUT it also says that any measurement
we make that is valid in our frame of reference is REALLY not valid at all
because REALLY everything has contracted and slowed down due to movement
through the aether .. which of course, we cannot detect or determine. One
thing about LET, it REALLY just makes things unnecessarily confusing.

As opposed to SR which also uses different coordinate systems for each
frame, which do not agree with each other. Which is why you get
relative simultanity and have to use the LT when comparing coordinates
from the two frames. For many that is confusing.

What's more, if
you check them using light signals when they are apart you will
measure them to be in sync, if you assume that light travels at c
relative to your central master clock. But since it is highly
unlikely that the master clock is at rest in the ether frame that is
not a valid assumption.
LET says we will measure what SR says we will measure. LET just adds to
what SR says by claiming that everything we observe and measure is an
illusion and wrong :):)

Do you think the fact that thermometers don't measure IQ makes their measurements "illusion and wrong"? In LET, clocks and rulers don't measure time and distance (nor are they meant to).

I can only imagine that LET followers end up
needing psychological help knowing that everything they see is an illusion
:):)

There are no illusions in models.


But yes .. the whole point about measuring a OWLS (or any
one-way-measurement of speed, not just light) is it requires SOME sort of
consistent assumption about what 'now' means for two separated stationary
clocks relative to a given frame of reference.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Einsteins Train Gedanken Re-visited
    ... the one moving with the earth would stay 'still' ... see we need to make it explicit) what do you claim about the clocks as ... appropriate speed would keep it in sync. ... frame would then be inertial. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Einsteins Train Gedanken Re-visited
    ... the one moving with the earth would stay 'still' ... see we need to make it explicit) what do you claim about the clocks ... appropriate speed would keep it in sync. ... frame would then be inertial. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Kepler ,Newton and orbital geometry
    ... frame any time they need to. ... It is the actual time it takes the Earth ... clocks in sync with the axial cycle are lovely and easy to understand ... Huygens showing how clocks,the axial cycle and terrestrial longitudes ...
    (sci.astro.amateur)
  • Re: Einsteins Train Gedanken Re-visited
    ... the one moving with the earth would stay 'still' ... I thought the whole purpose of this exercise was to get clocks in sync ... frame would then be inertial. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Einsteins Train Gedanken Re-visited
    ... The calculations for it were executed in the frame of reference ... The reason the clocks showed different elapsed times is the same ... on the surface of the earth their settings had changed. ... opposite directions at the same velocity and stop them ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)