Re: c+v and Sagnac

On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 17:23:13 +1000, "Inertial" <relatively@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Henry Wilson, DSc" <hw@..> wrote in message
news:oj4s95tfuv7ng5q6ue1ad615ul2u141bnu@xxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 09:07:51 +1000, "Inertial" <relatively@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Henry Wilson, DSc" <hw@..> wrote in message
news:hj7r95dbuplmhf56ue5b0o708n9org7ga8@xxxxxxxxxx
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:11:51 +1000, "Inertial" <relatively@xxxxxxxx>
wrote:

vary in brightness. So you can't have it both ways.

You are conflating two separate concepts

Nope. The same principle applies. Many stars appear to vary in
brightness
because the closing speed (your term) of their light on Earth varies
sinusoidally from c.

No .. it is just c.

Oh? Whoever measured it?

Whoever wants to

Anyone but a terrified relativist, I suppose.

Whenever we measure wavelength of light from (say) distant (moving)
stars.


How can something intrinsic change?

So the wavelength is NOT frame independent.

You've changed your story again.

No I haven't. I been saying just that for years.

Your paper on Sagnac says opposite

==
In BaTh, the wavelength of a particular monochromatic ray of light is
defined as the distance moved from the SOURCE during one cycle of its
intrinsic oscillation.

Wavelength is absolute, as is any length. It has the same value in all
frames and does not experience doppler shift at the source (if inertial).
==

So sometimes you say wavelength is frame indepedent and sometimes not. Let
us know when you make up your mind.

Wavelength is NOT frame dependent (ie., different OBSEVER SPEEDS). Intrinsic
wavelength DOES change when A PHOTON changes speed.
The difference is obviously too subtle for you.

No. There is no static detector in the SR analysis

Here it is again: http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

The points are called 'start' and 'end' and they are static. BaTh uses
the
same
points. So if BaTh is wrong about Sagnac then so is SR.

Because SR is talking about the difference in arrival time at those point.
not frequency differences. There is no frequency difference. Phase
difference are not frequency differences . they are due to differences in
arrival time.

Listen, this is obviously way over your head. but I'll try just once
more.

An element of each ray is emitted at a particular point which is static IN
THE
NONROTATING FRAME.

It is emitted from a moving source, and at a given time the source will be
at a given point.

After traveling around the ring, it arrives at another point which is also
STATIC in the nonrotating frame.

It arrives at a moving detector, and at a given time the detector will be at
a given point.

Gawd, you almost have it.....

It is not the same point as before.

That's right

Your SR diagram agrees.

Yes it does

So either you admit that you are the biggest idiot here or I
plonk you forever.

How was I wrong?

You keep raving the irrelevancy about the detector being moving. The detection
POINT is at rest, that's what matters.

But the
detection point and the emission point of each wave element are NOT
THE
SAME
points IN THE INERTIAL FRAME.

That's right. Because the source and detector move

I just explained it to you. The points are called 'start' and 'end' and
they
are static.

They are NOT the detector. They are points used in claculation of arrival
time. To get phase differences you need to consider the frequencies and
arrival times. the frequencies you need to doppler shift bakc to the
moving
detector.

Gees.. you just don't get it.

It's all explained in simple terms here.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/ringgyro.htm

I've read your crap already

It is too hard for you.

....and you already said the SR (actually aether) analysis is also crap because
it uses the same diagram

If the two rays leave the source with the same frequency wavelength and
speed, and arrive at the same time at the detectors with the same
frequency
wavelength and speed, then there is NO phase difference.

In the inertial frame, they don't have the same frequency. It's called
doppler
shift. Read about it.

That's what I've been telling YOU all the time! The detector is MOVING in
the inertial frame, so when you apply the Doppler back again the frequency
is the SAME

The detection point is NOT moving dopey. Therefore the nimber of waves passing
per second IS doppler shifted.

That is what
happens with ballistic theory in a sagnac experiment

There are more wavelengths in one path than the other.

Is that absolute wavelength that doesn't get changed by doppler shift, or
the wavelength that does?
Its hard to keep up when you keep changing your mind. Lets says its the
absolute one.

Wavelength only changes with ADoppler, (otherwise known as WaSh, the Wilson
Acceleration Shift). Conventional VDoppler occurs in Sagnac.

So tracing the path of rays in the inertial frame (where the frequency and
speed are different), where we know the rays are in phase, you get a
different number of wavelengths (and not necessarily a whole number
difference). It doesn't affect there being no phase difference.

Lets draw a little ascii picture (we'll flatten it out so the source is
moving in a straight line to avoid confusion here, and put a detectors D at
equal distance from S .. so imagine rolling the line up into a circle so the
S and D's all end up at the one point)

Lets look at the stationary case first. At the start we have the rays just
about to be emitted from the source S
-D--------------S--------------D-

Then after 1 cycle of oscillation of the rays they have both moved the
absolute wavelength from the source
-D---------<----S---->---------D-

Then after another cycle of oscillation of the rays they have both moved the
absolute wavelength from the source
-D----<----<----S---->---->----D-

And then in one more cycle the two rays arrive at the D's in phase, no phase
difference.

You are using the rotating frame and falling into the 'imaginary time trap'.

USE THE BLOODY INERTIAL FRAME.


Now. . lets do the same thing with S moving to the right, with 's' marking
the original position of 'S' when the rays were emitted

-D--------------S--------------D------
----------------s---------------------


---D---------<----S---->---------D----
----------------s---------------------


-----D----<----<----S---->---->----D--
----------------s---------------------


-------D----<----<----S---->---->----D
----------------s---------------------

Notice that the rays still arrive at the D's in phase and that there is a
different length of path from s to the LHS D and s to the RHS D. And a
different number of wavelengths (not whole number multiples).

Its the same in Sagnac. Different length path in the inertial frame,
different number of wavelength. But still in phase at the detector and the
rays take the same time to get there, and have the same speed relative to
the detector and the same frequency as measured by the detector.

You obviously don't even know what a rotating frame is. I will waste no further
time on you
<plonk>


Henry Wilson...www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein...World's greatest SciFi writer..
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Emission Theory of Androcles
    ... Stop guessing and get off the wave fetish. ... both speeds measured relative to the black background. ... wavelength, and that I can verify that by measurement and simple ... In the black frame. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: The Emission Theory of Androcles
    ... They leave the source with the same wavelength and speed and frequency ... which frame is absolute rest, one frame is as good as another, the rules ... the average time the light travels around it. ... leave the ring for the detector the speeds change, ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: The Emission Theory of Androcles
    ... Stop guessing and get off the wave fetish. ... both speeds measured relative to the black background. ... wavelength, and that I can verify that by measurement and simple ... In the black frame. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: The Emission Theory of Sir Isaac Newton, extended and explained by Androcles.
    ... time for the light to travel from source back to detector is the same ... frequency and take the same time to travel around. ... speeds compared to the speed of light. ... reference, but the wavelength varies. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: The Emission Theory of Androcles
    ... wavelength>>> relative to the red dots and want proof. ... In the black frame. ... I see no markers in the red frame of the source ... speeds because they travel different distances in the same time. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)