Re: How many things can happen in a single instant?

From: Mike Helland (mobydikc_at_gmail.com)
Date: 12/24/04 

Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:48:22 +0000 (UTC)

Igor Khavkine wrote:
> Mike Helland wrote:
> > Igor Khavkine wrote:
> > > On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:48:24 +0000, Mike Helland wrote:
> > >
> > > > This seems to be a standard assumption people have:
> > > >
> > > > "If time did not exist, no event occurred."
> > > >
> > > > As you may know this the opposite of how I view things. Instead I would
> > > > say:
> > > >
> > > > "If no event occured, time does not exist."
> > >
> > > You are free to say whatever you wish. However, merely stringing together
> > > a few words does not guarantee meaning. This is a common mistake.
> >
> > Perhaps. Let me be a little more straightforward, then.
> >
> > There is a relationship between time and motion, or, more generally
> > since motion is a change of some kind, there is a relationship between
> > time and change.
> >
> > We can define that relationship in one of three ways:
> >
> > 1. Time and change are the same thing
> > 2. Time is a medium, a dimensional continuum for change
> > 3. Time is a consequence of the analysis of change
> >
> > Are there any I missed?
>
> What you are missing is a proper definition of the things you are
> talking about. By themselves, the words "time" and "change" mean
> nothing. You must construct a mathematical model and assign these names
> to well defined objects in this model. However, you must be careful, if
> the model is too crude to explain or describe even basic observation,
> whatever conclusions you draw from it may be completely useless.

All words are completely meaningless and useless until some human being
decides otherwise.

Are you trying to tell me that you're refusing to engage in direct
conversation with me because you don't have any idea what "change" is
supposed to mean?

Here's a mathematical model in the form of a computer program (Visual
FoxPro):

*Initial Conditions
oElectron = createobject("electron")
oElectron.location = 0

*Now something changes
oElectron.location = 1

* Class definition of electron
define class electron as custom
location = 0
enddefine

* End of program

As for how time is defined, I've already said that I'm using definition
#3 above: Time is a consequence of the analysis of change

The reigning definition says that time is what a clock measures.

This definition is good, but can be stated in a more general and useful
way, and that is:

Time exists when something changes.

If "something changes" is taken to mean "the display of a clock
changes" then we have our old definition of time, but we can also use
this definition much more broadly. We can say that time exists when the
sun moves over our heads, or when radioactive material decays there is
time.

So, there's a mathematical model, and a definition of time.

My model might be a little crude, and you are correct when you say
crude models are not as good as very refined models. While I respect
that science and physics demands clarity and refinement, I'm largely
pissed off by the fact that when confronted with ideas that don't jive
with their beliefs, physicists use such cop-outs to avoid challenging
their assumptions.

> Your conclusion about the surface area of a black hole horizone are
> most likely wrong. This area is tied to many properties of a black
> hole, including mass, life time, temperature. All of these parameters
> are in principle measurable and are not expected to give zero.

Your gut feelings on the likelyness of whether it is likely wrong or
not is not the point. What is observed is the point.

Until observations and measurements are made of the surface area of an
event horizon, it should not only be tolerated, but it should be
encouraged to investigate the different predictions for such
measurements and observations.
To deny this is to deny this basic act of scientific investigation.