Re: Tired Light in the Valley of the Trolls

From: Old Man (nomail_at_nomail.net)
Date: 06/04/04 

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 01:10:27 -0500

"greywolf42" <mingstb@marssim-ss.com> wrote in message
news:10bvei8ji0dib8c@corp.supernews.com...
> In the thread 'Comments on lack of lightcurve evidence', a series of
trolls
> manifested, to divert attention from the core issue.
>
> Franz had posted a claim that he could disprove all 'tired light' theories
> by a simple, process-free calculation. The problem was that the core of
his
> 'disproof' was the explicit assumption that 'tired light' can't be
'tired.'
> (He called it assuming 'four-vector momentum' was conserved. And assumed
> this in all interactions between a 'photon' (without wavelike properties)
> and an electron or larger piece of matter (without resonances).
>
> AFAIK -- and as far as anyone else who has posted on this NG has stated --
> *NO* tired light theory that has been seriously proffered claims that
> knocking photons off of electrons (or larger matter) is the source of the
> 'tired light!' Compton scattering interactions (and similar models) are
> considered 'tired light' only by people who are trying to disprove the
> concept. (AFAIK, proponents of 'tired light' include interactions such as
> compton scattering in the normal extinction problems of astrometric
> observations.)
>
> Franz started with a false claim (that disproof of compton-style
scattering
> amounted to disproof of all tired-light theories). Franz later admitted
> that he couldn't come up with a numeric value (to be compared to
> observations) without first postulating a specific interaction (he used
the
> compton effect). Trolls continue to ravel along Franz' strawman.
Throwing
> around claims about what variations of hard scattering will do.
>
> But these are all irrelevant. Because 'tired light' is what they consider
a
> "violation" of perfect conservation of four-vector momentum. Now these
> trolls are free to address the concept that has actually been proposed.
> However, I have no desire to endlessly quibble over weaknesses or
strengths
> of a concept irrelevant to the proposed premise.
>
> --
> greywolf42

Clearly, one self -consistent theory can't be used to falsify
another independent self-consistent theory, but, as supporter
of tired light, the chore of demonstrating the self-consistency
of tired light theory belongs to greywolf42 and not to Franz.

It;s not clear from greywolf42's tirade whether or not tired
light theory is consistent with the conservation of 4-vector
momentum. Is a straight-forward answer available ?

Furthermore, tired light theory wouldn't be more than a
patch if it weren't comprehensive enough to predict the
outcome of photon-electron scattering, that outcome
being correctly predicted by QED.

So, is tired light theory consistent with the predictions of
QED or not ? Surely, wherever experimental data is present
consistency is required since QED hasn't been empirically
falsified.

Finally, QED, GTR, and classical electrodynamics don't
appear to be capable of predicting that light gets tired. So,
does light get tired by postulate ? If so, how does that
postulate fit in with the propagation and scattering of light ?

[Old Man]

Relevant Pages

  • Tired Light in the Valley of the Trolls
    ... Franz had posted a claim that he could disprove all 'tired light' theories ... Franz started with a false claim (that disproof of compton-style scattering ... Trolls continue to ravel along Franz' strawman. ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Tired Light in the Valley of the Trolls
    ... >> momentum' was conserved. ... >> Trolls continue to ravel along Franz' strawman. ... > of tired light theory belongs to greywolf42 and not to Franz. ... > light theory is consistent with the conservation of 4-vector ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Redshift and the speed of light
    ... re-radiation is not a tired light theory. ... The closest that came was a strawman posted by Ned Wright, using Compton ... scattering off of electrons. ...
    (sci.physics.research)
  • Re: Cosmic acceleration rediscovered
    ... When Hubble first published, he was noting ... one might expect the redshift from galaxies ... No. Extinction (scattering and absorption by matter) is separate from tired ... > lines and it is this variant of tired light that Wright was ...
    (sci.astro)
  • Re: Cosmic acceleration rediscovered
    ... Well, I disagree. ... people set it to zero (because there were no ... Which tired light theory predicts this and what ... And which tired light theory predicted the new data, ...
    (sci.astro)