Re: Newton and Einstein on the multiple natures of space and time

From: MikeHelland (mhelland_at_techmocracy.net)
Date: 06/18/04 

Date: 18 Jun 2004 11:17:21 -0700

Mark Fergerson wrote:
> Mike Helland wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I think it is clear that both Newton and Einstein were very aware
of
> > the multiple natures of space and time.
>
> Newton thought that momentum as measured by two
> observers, one moving with a moving object and one not
> moving with it, would be identical. This is because he
> believed in Absolute space and time (and by implication,
> Galilean velocity transforms)

True, he believed in absolute space and time but he also believed in
relative space and time.

Read Newton's words from my original post again:

<quote>Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself and from its
own
nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by
another name is called "duration"; relative, apparent, and common time
is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure
of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of
true time, such as an hour, a day, a month, a year.

Absolute space, in its own nature, without relation to anything
external, remains always similar and immovable. Relative space is some
movable dimension or measure of the absolute spaces, which our senses
determine by its position to bodies and which is commonly taken for
immovable space
</quote>

Newton believed in both absolute and relative time, and that the
absolutes existed in their own nature. It doesn't get any clearer than
that.

> Einstein knew better; you can only figure momentum using
> your own proper time, which depends on your state of motion
> (Lorentzian velocity transforms).

This is correct, because Einstein made the assertion that we should
only predict using relative space-time. This doesn't contradict the
fact, however, that he still thought absolute space-time could exist
beyond our observations. Here, again, is the comment from Heisenberg to
Einstein states this rather clearly:

"After all, you did stress the fact that it is
impermissible to speak of absolute time, simply because absolute time
cannot be observed; that only clock readings, be it in the moving
reference system or the system at rest, are relevant to the
determination of time."

As I said, Newton and Einstein both understood the necessity and role
of the absolute and relative natures of space and time. I think in our
studies of both Newton and Einstein this hugely important detail is
often ignored, most likely because of how difficult to understand the
concepts are as a result of their incompleteness.

> This is not up for debate; experiment proved Newton flat
> wrong.

It is also quite different from topic I was discussing.

The quotations from Newton and Einstein unmistakenably show that both
believed that there was absolute space and time as well as relative
space and time.

I attempted to interject Leibniz's idea of absolute matter and relative
matter into that relationship.

I think its rather appropriate. Do you have anything to say on that
suggestion? 

--
Mike Helland
http://www.techmocracy.net/science/zeno.htm

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