Re: Sloppy Pentagon Investigation was Re: Four More Years of Murder

From: lensman1955 (lensman1955_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 08/01/04 

Date: 31 Jul 2004 20:55:16 -0700

Phat Albert Camus <master@mason.snuh> wrote in message news:<Xns95379EA3FCFDBspamspamsnuhspam33@207.14.113.17>...
> lensman1955@hotmail.com (lensman1955) wrote in
> news:633b063b.0407310216.1aad0ff8@posting.google.com:
>
> > Phat Albert Camus <master@mason.snuh> wrote in message
> > news:<Xns9536C7BFBBB8Fspamspamsnuhspam33@207.14.113.17>...
> >> Laurence Doering <ljd@bcpl.net> wrote in
> >> news:2mvig1Fr5vj3U1@uni-berlin.de:
> >>
> >> > On 30 Jul 2004 03:07:59 -0700, lensman1955
> >> > <lensman1955@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Phat Albert Camus <master@mason.snuh> wrote in message
> >> >> news:<Xns9535B71BB265Fspamspamsnuhspam33@207.14.113.17>...
> >> >>> lensman1955@hotmail.com (lensman1955) wrote in
> >> >>> news:633b063b.0407290425.5f6b5288@posting.google.com:
> >> >>> > I asked (re; Pentagon) what people expected the wings to do?
> >> >>> > Drop off outside the building a la the James Bond movie "Live
> >> >>> > and Let Die" or leave little wing shaped holes in reinforced
> >> >>> > granite.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> No, that is your stock reply. It is the stock reply of many
> >> >>> Pentagon story defenders. Almost a trademark of the debunker who
> >> >>> has exhausted his limited bag of tricks.

Dodge noted. (HA! Your turn!)

> >> >>>
> >> >>> > I never got an
> >> >>> > answer, I was just told I was being stupid for thinking the
> >> >>> > wings could crumble up and be dragged into the building.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Can you explain the physics of these wings disappearing into this
> >> >>> tiny hole? It seems to me, if they struck the wall, the last
> >> >>> thing they could possibly do is "crumble up and be dragged inside
> >> >>> the building".
> >> >>
> >> >> This is my understanding, and I'll type slowly so you can follow
> >> >> along. (Yes, that was deliberate.)
> >> >>
> >> >> The nose of the plane punches a hole in the wall. As the base of
> >> >> the wings reaches the wall, there's more surface area and less
> >> >> structural strength to the wings than there is to the nose so the
> >> >> wings are unable to punch through the wall. Taking the path of
> >> >> least resistance, they crumble back into the fuselage and are
> >> >> dragged into the hole.
> >> >>
> >> >> If there's something wrong with that idea, let me know what it is
> >> >> and what you think _should_ have happened to the wings.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > The problem with the idea of the wings "crumbling back into the
> >> > fuselage" is that it accepts at face value the "No 757 Hit The
> >> > Pentagon, You Idiot" peoples' claim that the hole in the
> >> > Pentagon's exterior wall was relatively small.
> >>
> >>
> >> As evidenced by the pictures, and even the ASCE report, I believe.
>
>
> Unchallenged assertion. The photographs clearly show no "120-foot wide
> hole".

You do know that stuff up there isn't by me?

> >> > In fact, the hole in the Pentagon's outer wall was about 120 feet
> >> > wide.
> >>
> >>
> >> That is false, by any stretch of the imagination.
> >>
> >> The circular hole was at most, 16 feet or so wide. The damage to the
> >> face of the Pentagon cannot be properly termed a hole at all. The
> >> columns are still extant. Perhaps the width of the damage was 120
> >> feet. The hole was certainly not 120 feet wide.
> >>
> >> But I would love to see some pictures supporting your claim, and
> >> disproving mine.
> >>
> >> Are you really this misinformed, or are you just lying?
> >
> > Which brings me back to my point which is that the wings hit the
> > reinforced granite, slammed back into the fuselage and were dragged
> > into the building.
>
>
> Were they hinged or something?
>
>
> > This guy tells me that's wrong because the hole was larger than
> > claimed. You say the hole wasn't. Why then couldn't the wings have
> > been folded up and dragged in? I'm still waiting for an answer to
> > that.
>
>
> I'd say it has to do with them moving forward, and then meeting
> resistance. The lateral-to-forward motion that you ascribe to the wings
> has no basis in reality.

I think I get your "sideways" comment now! I never suggested the wings
folded sideways accordian fashion. I was thinking they hit the wall,
and were slammed back against the fuselage and dragged into the
building.

> >> > AA 77 struck the wall at an angle of about 45 degrees,
> >>
> >>
> >> Although that is not the angle that seems to be on the security
> >> camera frames, which appears to be much closer to perpendicular.
> >
> > Do we know that the security camera was at a 90 degree angle to the
> > wall of the Pentagon?
>
>
> Not exactly 90 degree, possibly. But close enough.

But you don't _know_ exactly what angle the camera took the picture
at?

> >> Again, there was no 120-feet wide hole. You are being disingenuous at
> >> best, or dishonest.
> >>
> >>
> >> And if the wings fragmented, where is the debris?
> >
> > um, dragged into the building?
>
>
> Cling to your new explanation, for all it's worth.
>
>
> So one piece of the exterior of the plane avoided this fate, somehow?

Actually, there was one large piece found on the lawn. Wasn't there
also metal confetti seen strewn all over the lawn? (I don't know where
the picture would be, I'm interested in this but not that obsessed.)

> >> > How could an engine penetrate the wall without
> >> > totally destroying the concrete support columns that were
> >> > left hanging (severed at the bottom, as if they had been
> >> > struck by something about the width of an airliner's wing)
> >> > on the right side of the hole?
> >>
> >>
> >> For that matter, how could part of a column remain in the very
> >> center, at the top, where the whole of the alleged 757 was said to
> >> have penetrated?
>
>
> Evaded. I have to ask again, why is there a piece of column hanging down
> where this 16-foot wide circular hole swallowed a 757, wings and all?
>
> It sort of defies explanation, doesn't it?
>
>
> >> > Here's how. The columns were on 10-foot centers, so there's
> >> > slightly more than a 9 foot gap between them. The widest
> >> > part of a Rolls-Royce RB211 is the fan, which is about 7
> >> > feet in diameter. However, the fan and fan shroud are
> >> > relatively lightweight compared to the rest of the engine,
> >> > and would most likely have been converted into lots of
> >> > tiny bits of shrapnel on impact.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Which is not in evidence in any photo. How many other planes have
> >> been converted to "shrapnel", by the way?
> >
> > How many planes have hit reinforced granite buildings? I know a
> > fighter plane hit the Empire State building once back in the 40s, it
> > was mostly shredded.
>
>
> Mostly shredded? Do you have a cite for this?

No, I saw the picture once in a book on the Empire State Building. The
plane was reduced to debris which was in the building. (The engine
went down an elevator shaft as I recall!)

> A similar plane also hit an apartment building in Amsterdam, I believe. I
> don't think the wings got sucked into the hole it made, though.
>
> Curious.

Not at all, I doubt the apartment building was the same sort of
reinforced granite the Pentagon was made of A/O.

> I've never heard of another shredded plane ever, in fact.
>
> Not even the fighter that they deliberately flew into a wall.

Brick wall or reinforced granite with multiple layers?

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