Re: eer
From: Dr. Jai Maharaj (usenet_at_mantra.com)
Date: 08/08/04
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Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 00:10:03 GMT
In article <20040807105529.19192.00002941@mb-m06.news.cs.com>,
feerguy9@cs.com (FEerguy9) posted:
>
> Electronic electricity repository is an energy concept that aims to accumulate
> and store electrical energy from any source. The storage would be intended to
> accommodate such things as electric vehicles, home heating, etc. The best
> example is the EV - an electric car that would run on an ever-accumulating
> power source. That is to say, any and all sources of electrical energy --
> including diffuse sources -- would be collected, combined and stored in the
> form of capacitance. But, wouldn't the capacitor plates be bigger than the
> vehicle? Well, yes they would, unless a way to increase the surface area of
> the plates *within a small perimeter* could be fashioned. The plates (and the
> dielectric) *must* match exactly, to gain optimum charge. I suggest that
> Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology, or possibly even nanotechnology be
> used to accomplish this -- whatever could configure roughly halfway to the
> molecular level. Doing this -- configuring massive surface area within a
> small
> perimeter -- is the heart of eer. It could involve steps, or grooves to
> 'tuck'
> the surface areas away. BTW, this would necessarily require a *much* stronger
> dielectric, which admittedly is taken on faith - but it could be many years
> away.
> The object is to configure the plates and dielectric so they all fit like
> Jell-O in a mold, and to make these all small in perimeter -- while yielding
> enormous surface area. That way, it is hoped, enough charge could be stored
> to
> run an EV. Further, it is expected that about 15 sources of renewable energy
> (solar, wind, wave, etc.) would be able to contribute to the 'eer pool' of
> stored electrical energy. In time, renewable energy stored in this way could
> effectively replace fossil fuels and batteries for vehicles.
> The renewable sources need not necessarily have a device actually *on* the
> vehicle; it is anticipated that such renewable devices could be located, say,
> in or on a garage, and the electric charge transferred to the vehicle when
> required.
> I ask you -- with the advent of electric cars, might not this concept (if it
> worked) pretty much end our dependence on oil?
>
> NOTE: This idea absolutely, in no way, breaks the Second Law! No more than a
> 12v car battery does.
>
>
>
>
> Frank Lincoln
> FEerguy9@cs.com
> eerguy9@aol.com
> eerguy2000@yahoo.com
>
> PS: In case you hadn't noticed, I am VERY weak with computers.
>
>
>
> More, if you like..........
>
> This is no more than a guess from a novice
>
>
>
>
> There are some mistakes in here
>
> In one sentence, I am saying that a very, very advanced capacitor is possible,
> and would accommodate most of the energy problems we have today -- basically
> it
> would do the job that the energy function of oil now does.
>
>
> An energy concept
>
>
> Yes, there is a 21st Law of Thermodynamics. That is no knock on Faraday, just
> a reference to the 21st century, and the new technology it has brought.
>
> Simply stated, it is, "No energy concept involving renewables shall ever be
> considered unless the word 'diffuse' is used, understood, and taken into
> consideration."
>
> Faraday could not have seen this coming. In his day, there was not the
> multitude of diffuse renewable energy sources available, which can be
> converted
> to electricity.
>
> If human beings are ever to use renewable, natural energy sources, they will
> have to take into consideration the diffuse nature of sunlight, wind, wave,
> etc. I was actually surprised to find that Faraday, himself, used the word
> "diffuse" in his writings. But, this was in reference to the spread of charge
> on capacitor plates, and not the UN-concentrated free energy that is available
> today for conversion to electricity.
>
> There is NO way around this Law. By that, I mean that there in no way around
> solving the "diffuse problem," before we are able to put renewable energy
> sources to work in any effective way.
>
>
>
> A goal......an idea......a prediction.......energy is easy........ there is no
> crises.
>
> We don't need oil.
> We don't need batteries.
> We don't need internal combustion engines.
> We don't need fusion.
> We don't need hybrids.
> We don't need hydrogen-powered cars.
> We don't need ethanol.
> We don't need natural gas.
> We don't need methane.
> We don't even need efficiency.
> We don't even need conservation.
>
> All we need are the renewable energy sources that God - in His infinite wisdom
> -- provided us.
>
> Some could be used, some not. For a while. Eventually renewable energy
> sources would be all we would need to power our EV's, and heat our homes. We
> would have the luxury of choice, while at the same time powering our EV's with
> them. All of them. Any of them. As long as they are able to generate any
> amount of electricity.
>
> To those who have read this before, and may have rejected it out of hand, let
> me say that it is my strong belief that two major companies may be engaged in
> pretty much the basic idea presented here. They have patents - I do not. In no
> way do I - nor will I - attempt to claim any right whatsoever to this idea --
> even though all my writing on it came from my own independent thinking for
> over
> 12 years. I wish them well. But, in case I am wrong about that effort being
> made, I surely wish some interested party would help me connect this to the
> people in government who say they want an energy solution. What they are
> looking for is contained on this letter. I am THAT confident.
>
> Note: I can see EER powering an automobile. That is almost a lock, in my
> mind.
> Further applications are, perhaps, a little harder to deal with. Once a car
> IS powered by EER, then all the entrepreneurs will take the rest to the
> logical
> conclusion. For the most part, EER will be discussed in terms of an electric
> vehicle.
>
>
> EER in Brief
>
>
> Electronic Electricity Repository (EER) is merely a concept at this time.
> There
> is no business, no patent, and no money involved with this.
>
> This involves solid state capacitors as a usable energy storage device for
> electric vehicles, and other items. Conventional wisdom limits capacitors to
> power surges, and the like. The full text of this concept will suggest a way
> to
> make them fully competitive with the internal combustion engine, while not
> violating the laws of energy density.
>
> The easiest way to explain it is to use an electric vehicle as an
> example. To power an EV with EER, an array of electronic devices --
> perhaps solid-state capacitors, perhaps another device -- would
> contain the electrical charge accumulated from a variety of sources
> of electricity. Renewable energy sources are suggested, but *any*
> source of electricity would work. With the questionable future of
> battery-powered EV's, and fusion as an energy source, and the political debate
> about fossil fuels, there are strong reasons to take a look at EER.
>
> In fairness, many say it cannot be done. But, perhaps another war
> -- or avoiding one -- could put the right minds to work on this concept. It
> *would* provide a way to be independent of foreign oil, while providing a
> structure for the transition to renewable forms of energy to power EV's - or
> any other device powered by electricity.
>
> This is merely a shell of an idea, but perhaps some further thought could help
> bring it about.
>
> Frank Lincoln....72430,2407......Feerguy9@cs.com
> **************************************************************************
> **************************
>
>
>
> A TRIP TO THE STORE IN AN EER POWERED EV
>
> Let's suppose that the EER concept is fully developed, and built
> into an electric vehicle. Let's also suppose that the newest and best
> technological devices -- some of which are now being used in EV's - are
> integrated into the vehicle's design. What follows is a description
> of what might possibly have happened during an everyday trip to the store
> in such a vehicle. (This assumes the use of an *advanced* solid-state
> capacitor).
> Ms. Jones notices her "fuel gauge" as she starts her vehicle; it
> tells her that her microchip capacitor battery is 85% full. This means
> that of the vast number of microchip capacitors in her "battery," 85% are
> charged with their very small electric capacitance.
> She proceeds to the store, and returns home -- a quarter mile
> trip. As she pulls in her driveway, she looks again at her gauge. It
> reads 84%. She thinks that she used only 1% of her battery capacity for
> her trip.
> But, she is wrong.
> She used 10% of her available charged capacitors for the quarter
> mile trip. So, why didn't her gauge read 75% when she returned?
> There were several devices built into her vehicle which were
> replenishing used capacitors, almost as fast as she was using them. (All
> figures below are guesses -- just to make the point.)
>
> 1. The advanced solar panel on the roof of her vehicle was, as
> always during sunlight, continuously recharging at a slow, but
> steady rate. Because she had happened to drive and park in
> the sunlight, the solar panel recharged 5% of her capacitors.
> 2. The air scoops arranged in her vehicle's design -- although
> accounting for some drag -- were directing the air through
> small dynamos, which recharged another 2%.
> 3. The regenerative brakes on all four wheels replenished another
> 2% of the capacitors.
>
> So, she did, in fact, use 10% of the available capacitor charges,
> but 9% were replaced by the activity of her trip.
> This is nothing like perpetual motion; it is merely taking
> advantage of the natural surrounding energy to replenish the energy
> spent on the trip.
> It is even conceivable that her "fuel gauge" might have read a
> higher percentage upon her return; a shorter trip on a windier and
> sunnier day, in a more sunlit route and parking spot, and many more
> occasions to use the brakes, might have made that possible. The Second
> Law of Thermodynamics is not violated, because energy from outside the
> vehicle was being absorbed along the way.
> It is noted that a battery-powered EV could have done much the
> same, but the weight difference would have changed the percentages, so
> as to defeat the purpose.
> Frank Lincoln CS# 72430,2407
> **************************************************************************
> **************************
>
>
>
> It is understood that high energy density is something that has been sought
> for
> many years -- the concept is nothing new. What is suggested here is the
> possibility that modern technology may now be in the position to actually
> attain it -- to a degree that could combine the many energy sources (new and
> old) into a common pool.
>
>
> GIVEN:
> - Trench capacitors, at the present time, have nowhere near the capability to
> deal with the degree of energy that would be required in Electronic
> Electricity
> Repository.
> - The area of the plates in a trench capacitor will, for the most part,
> determine the capacitance -- not exclusively, but this is the factor that is
> dealt with here as having the most potential for improvement. It is assumed
> that progress in the other factors -- dielectric strength, dielectric
> composition, etc., will continue, and will accommodate the supposition of
> surface area increase made here.
>
> HYPOTHESIS:
> - The surface area of a trench capacitor plate can be greatly increased
> without
> increasing the perimeter, or the space required to store the capacitor.
> - Etching a groove on the plate surface will do this, to a small degree, and
> it
> is done, to some extent, today. What is surmised, here, is that, as the
> technology allows, many cross-grooves could be etched *within* the first
> groove. Then, with increasing precision, these cross-grooves could, in turn,
> be
> cross-grooved. And, then those cross-grooves cross-grooved. Each successive
> cross-grooving would be progressively smaller - magnitudes smaller. This could
> be repeated until the molecular level was reached -- each time increasing the
> surface area of the plate, and thus the capacitance. An inexact estimate of
> the
> number of times it could be repeated is 26. It is surmised that each groove,
> cross-groove, and, etc., would be matched by a ridge, a cross-ridge, and,
> etc.,
> on the opposite plate, with corresponding shapes for the dielectric. The
> resulting configuration would yield a perfectly matching set of plates
> (sandwiching an appropriately shaped, and expectedly advanced dielectric).
> Such
> a configuration and material composition may not be possible at this time, but
> the direction of efforts in their respective technologies may lead to their
> development in the very near future. This concept is put forth in
> *anticipation* of those developments.
> - In theory, each successive etching would substantially increase the area of
> the plates, and thus the capacitance *without increasing their size*, their
> perimeter, or the volume of space needed for them. Again, the only barrier
> seems to be at reaching the molecular level, after each groove is re-grooved,
> perpendicularly, and then THAT groove is re-grooved, etc. This would take
> advantage of all the "inner space" available between the plate surface, and
> the
> molecular level. (Understand that in place of "etching," Scanning Tunneling
> Microscope Technology might be applied -- or even nanotechnology, if that ever
> becomes reality. The point is to configure the grooves -- by whatever method.)
>
>
> BENEFITS:
> - An almost endless storage system for electricity.
> - A way to store electricity from *any* source, from renewables to a wall
> socket.
> - A possible solution to the search for a better power plant for electric
> vehicles.
> - A structure within which to make the conversion from fossil fuels to
> renewables.
> - A way to accumulate the "trickle" of the many forms of renewable energy, and
> combine and store them in a practical way; a way that could give strength to
> the many "weak" and diffuse renewable energy sources.
> An attempt to generally suggest HOW to accomplish EER will be made; this will
> be based on the feedback received so far on this concept. For the most part,
> feedback has come from various forums in CompuServe. All major objections will
> be mentioned, and a way around each one will be suggested.
> ENERGY DENSITY - This appears to be the leading objection to EER. In the
> strongest terms, it is postulated, here, that there is no sacred or permanent
> universal limit to energy density -- there are only hurdles. There *are*
> limits
> to present materials and there *are* limits to a given geometry, but no
> universal scientific boundary that would stand forever and always. There are
> certainly physical limits to the materials *now* being used, but, this concept
> of EER does, indeed, depend upon progress in this area -- improvements in
> materials are bound to happen. Unless human progress is at its maximum, there
> is reason for such an expectation. Especially since -- many say -- technology
> is doubling every day with computer technology, and since many of the best
> resources in the world are focused on this type of science. (If anything like
> this concept of EER ever happens, it will be as a natural development of such
> materials -- and NOT a result of this effort; that is quite thoroughly
> understood.)
> It is suggest here that even without improvements in dieletrics, there may be
> opportunity to vastly improve their capability with the one factor --
> geography
> of the plates.
>
> Just as computers changed everything about information, some form of EER may
> change the way energy is dealt with. The suggestion, above, regarding etching
> grooves in trench capacitor plates, and then etching those grooves, etc., is
> offered as a possible way to provide the structure that would enable a
> monumentally higher energy density, than has ever been achieved. If the
> geometry of the plates is configured as suggested here, and they are
> identically wrinkled, it is expected that a very high energy density could be
> achieved by taking advantage of the inner space. The accumulation of a massive
> repelling force between plates is a problem for which no answer will be
> attempted here. But, mechanics aside, it appears that developing technology
> will, indeed, provide the tools necessary to configure the plates.
>
> CAPACITOR LEAKAGE - Two points here: 1) Leakage in trench capacitors is not
> nearly as big a problem as it was a few short years ago -- holding a charge
> for
> an electric vehicle, for example, would be well within the cycle of usage. In
> other words, an EV would be expected to be used often enough to use the
> charges
> before they have time to leak. 2) The percentage of loss due to leakage could
> logically be offset by overloading the capacitor bank by a like percentage.
> This is somewhat of a built-in inefficiency, but in time, wouldn't the leakage
> problem be expected to continue to improve?
>
> ARCHING - The concern about electrical arching between the extremely small
> dimensions created by the etching and re-etching can only be explained away by
> a layman in this way: the extremely small dimensions would occur between parts
> of the same plate - and *not* between the opposing plates. The surfaces of the
> two plates would remain equidistant over the entire area. It is expected that
> the extremely small dimensions would mainly occur between points on the same
> plate, at the same potential -- and, thus, no arching would be anticipated.
>
> ATOMIC LEVEL - In a pretty thorough analysis in the LEAP forum, it was
> indicated that "the whole idea of a capacitor thus breaks down as we approach
> atomic dimensions." (The following assumes abilities predicted by some as to
> etching, Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology, atomic force microscope,
> lithography, or other methods.) If you make one groove (G1) in a capacitor
> plate, that certainly does not approach atomic dimensions, yet it does
> increase
> the surface area of the plate (without increasing its perimeter). Then, if you
> go back and make another groove (G2) WITHIN G1's SURFACE, you are closer --
> but
> still not near the atomic level. Then if the surface of G2 is etched (or
> STM'd)
> with G3, you are closer yet; closer -- but still a long way from the atomic
> level. How far? Well, the number 26 seems to hold up as the number of times
> you could re-etch grooves, before you hit bottom.
> (Each successive etching step would be, say, a hundred times smaller than the
> previous one. G3 is a hundred times smaller than G2. G2 is a hundred times
> smaller than G1, and etc. G26 would be the smallest, and would begin to enter
> atomic dimensions.)
> Now, backing up, let's say you made a hundred tiny grooves on the surface of
> the original plate -- so you have 100 G1's. Within each G1, you etch 100 much
> smaller G2's. Within each G2 you etch 100 G3's, which are yet, again, much
> smaller. This is a million grooves at the 3rd of 26 steps. If you could
> continue on in this way for 26 re-groovings of the grooves, how many grooves
> would you have at the 26th step? And, by how much would you have increased the
> surface area of that plate? And how much more dipole moment effect would now
> take place? And how much more ability to hold charge would you have? If the
> number 26 makes you cranky, stop at 20, or 12.
> The point is this: there is a tremendous amount of "inner space" available
> *before* you reach atomic level. Perhaps an optimum number could be safely
> reached. Even 12 would seem to provide a monumental increase in charge storage
> ability. Subject to mathematicians' scrutiny, there may be 10^24 grooves, when
> you are only halfway down to atomic level, and free of the terrible things
> that
> happen there. At the halfway point, you have monumentally increased the
> surface
> area, without threatening stability. Assuming that the dielectric follows the
> shape of the plate exactly, have you not vastly increased the number of
> molecules subject to polar realignment in the electric field? Could it be said
> that, even though the individual dipole moments would stay at the same in
> magnitude, there is an opportunity to create a tremendously larger number of
> them, by taking advantage of the inner space available?
>
> MASS PRODUCTION - Some of these techniques to reform very small structures are
> very slow and very expensive. Some question was raised as to their
> adaptability
> to a mass production situation. As with any change in technology, first
> efforts
> are not usually efficient. But there seems to be enough advantages to EER so
> that the forces of supply and demand would push the costs down. Once in the
> competitive market, improvements in technique could be expected.
>
> GROOVES TOO SMALL? - A statement made in one of the forums was, "There is a
> limit to how small the grooves can be before they don't work any more." As
> this
> was from a good source, it is taken seriously. If some of the logic, above,
> doesn't account for this, there may be difficulty, here.
>
> DISCHARGE TIME - Capacitors normally discharge very quickly, so wouldn't they
> make a rather bad storage device? No detailed answer will be attempted, here,
> but can't this be controlled with a very low discharge current, with a high
> resistance?
>
> Electricity is -- or can be -- the common denominator for all energy sources,
> from solar to hydro. It is for exactly this reason that EER could employ each
> and every energy source. All the new renewable technology could be "fed" into
> EER - without exception. Yet, at the same time, conventional sources could
> contribute to it -- every drop of oil and every lump of coal on this planet
> could be used, purposely. Could this captured energy not then be put to use,
> as
> needed, and when needed, by controlling the energy bursts to simulate
> conventional electricity flow?
>
> *******************
>
> The technology that would be needed for EER *seems* to be within sight - with
> some faith required, perhaps, for the materials. Basically, it is the ability
> to sculpt materials at the molecular level which brought about this revised
> approach to EER. I have never seen the etching process, nor STM; this whole
> concept of extremely small sculpting to obtain extremely high surface area is
> drawn from my imagination -- and the little I have read about these processes.
> I am motivated by the extreme advantages that would come about, and the
> apparent ability to accomplish this; if not on a production basis, then at
> least on a prototype basis, to start. I'm certain there are still technical
> errors in this effort -- it is hoped that the general idea was communicated
> with some adequacy. This *seems* possible - or within reach - to me, and it
> *seems* as though it would bring about profound benefits, and it *seems* to me
> that it is a logical way to approach energy at this point in time.
>
> But, I defer to the experts.
> **************************************************************************
> **************************
>
> I have no patent on this idea. My motivation is not monetary.
>
> I understand that this could not be done today, because of limits on existing
> dieletrics, and perhaps other items. My position is that EER is not
> impossible,
> given advances in some technologies.
>
> Please respond by Email
> or call at (248) 288-3459
> Feerguy9@cs.com
> Frank Lincoln
>
> Please keep in mind that EER would allow energy from any and all sources to be
> stored and combined in such a way that an electric vehicle could, at some
> later
> time, be powered by it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Separating a steel sample using a tensile tester could be useful in EER.
>
> The jagged edges could be cut off, just past their breakpoint. Call these two
> pieces of jagged metal our capacitor plates. The broken pieces are matched
> molecular for molecule. If a dielectric is molded between the two jagged ends,
> the fit could not be better. "d" is maintained. The area of the matching
> jagged
> edges is much, much more than the cross section of the steel sample. We then
> have matching capacitor plates without using STM to configure all the
> surfaces.
>
>
>
> Note: EER may not solve all energy problems, but in my opinion, it could
> certainly power personal vehicles.
>
> Anyone who receives this is free to publish.
>
>
>
>
> Feerguy9@cs.com
> eerguy9@aol.com
You have a right to express yourself.
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
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