Re: Search for Higgs Boson not dangerous.
From: Bjoern Feuerbacher (feuerbac_at_thphys.uni-heidelberg.de)
Date: 08/30/04
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:15:04 +0200
TomGee wrote:
> Bjoern Feuerbacher <feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message news:<cgnosr$p41$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>...
>
>>TomGee wrote:
>>
>>>Bjoern Feuerbacher <feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message news:<cgl5bk$bvh$2@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>TomGee wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Old Man" <nomail@nomail.net> wrote in message news:<DaydnV08J62AyLfcRVn-pA@prairiewave.com>...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Rather than an explosion of matter, the Big-Bang was / is an
>>>>>>explosion of space, and not at just one point, but at all points.
>>>>>>Local mass / energy exists in an inertial reference frame that
>>>>>>co-moves with the expansion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>So you believe that as the universe expands, space and all
>>>>>objects/systems in it move along with it as if fixed in the space they
>>>>>occupy?
>>>>
>>>>>It seems the latter would be correct since
>>>>>objects/systems appear to be independently moving away from each
>>>>>other. If the former were true, that requires some sort of universal
>>>>>absolute force to impose itself upon all objects/systems in relation
>>>>>to the space they occupy, and in relation to all of space.
>>>>
>>>>Err, how does this follow?
>>>>
>>>
>>>In an explosion, matter flies outward from its center in all
>>>directions due to the impetus provided by the forces of the explosion,
>>>and such matter moves independently of the space it moves through. In
>>>a landmine explosion, e.g., the air through which the metal fragments
>>>fly does not expand or move along with them. In order for objects to
>>>move along with the expansion of space as if they are fixed in the
>>>space they occupy, something must fix them "in place" like a glue
>>>would fix ants on the surface of an expanding balloon.
>>
>>The force which fixes them there is simply inertia.
>>
>
> And just how does does inertia fix them in place?
Inertia is the resistance of objects if one tries to change their
state of motion. If something rests, it will stay resting unless
a force acts on it. The analogy in cosmology: if the coordinates of an
object do not change (i.e. it is comoving with the cosmological
expansion), it will not suddenly start changing its coordinates.
>>>>>Such a force is not evident, but if you have a theory about it, let's have
>>>>>it.
>>>>
>>>>The theory which says that the universe "carries" objects with it as it
>>>>expands is called General Relativity.
>>>>
>
> No, that is incorrect. GR says no such thing. References, please.
That follows from the equations of GR. See below.
Do you know these equations?
BTW, there is also a somewhat similar effect, which is currently
measured by the Gravity Probe B: moving matter can drag spacetime
along with it.
<http://einstein.stanford.edu/gpb_intro.html>
>>The geodesic equation of GR (that's the analogue of Newton's first law,
>>essentially - it tells us how things move as long as no forces act on
>>them) tells us that as long as no forces act on an object, its
>>coordinates will not change. Nevertheless, since the distance between
>>any two objects is given by a(t) * sqrt(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2), where a(t)
>>is the so-called "scale parameter" (I give here only the simplest
>>example, a flat universe; for the general case, read up on
>>"Robertson-Walker metric"), the distances between objects increases with
>>time, even if their coordinates stay the same.
>>
>
> But doesn't that contradict the basis of the spacetime diagram where
> distance remains the same through time? (Kitty Ferguson, "Stephen
> Hawking Quest For A theory Of Everything", Bantam Books, 1991, pp
> 100-105).
Sorry, I have no clue what you mean here. What does "distance remains
the same through time" mean, and what has that to do with the "basis of
the spacetime diagram"? Hey, I am even not sure what sort of spacetime
diagram you mean - that term is rather ambiguous!
I don't have the book you mention above available here - could you
please quote some relevant passages?
> Remember that anything is possible with math constructs, as
> Einstein proved with his "static universe".
What has Einstein's static universe to do with "anything is possible
with math constructs"?
> Now GR talks about a
> rocketship fixed on the surface of the earth while actually moving
> through time, but he made that up so as to explain his curved-space
> theory.
Sorry, I do't understand what you mean here.
> GR states that curved space "moves along" with massive bodies
> in their travels through space,
Huh? Do you mean the effect I mentioned above in connection with
Gravity Probe B?
> but I don't think Einstein meant that
> space moves along with the bodies, just the curvature effect caused by
> mass.
Right.
> Is that what you refer to with your references to GR?
No, also the effect is somewhat similar.
> If so, the analogy does not fit your point.
Agreed.
>>How else would you call that than "space carries objects along with it"?
>>
>
> I have never heard it said that way.
Well, I don't remember reading that anyway, too - but again: what
else would you call the effect I described above?
> I have heard it said that
> objects move through space due to the effects of the BB,
That's the point of view commonly presented in popular science
descriptions of the BB - but from the viewpoint of GR, it does not
make so much sense.
> and that
> space, and thus our universe, is expanding due to the BB, but I have
> not heard it said that space carries objects along with it as it
> expands. You either have a new theory or you are not quite
> comprehending the essence of that which we speak.
Well, what is your knowledge of GR? Why do you think you are qualified
to judge if I understand it or not?
>>One could perhaps also say "object stay where they are, but the space
>>between them expands" - that has the same effect.
>>
>
> No, not so.
Yes, so.
> As the space expands, objects would separate all the more
> as more space is added.
Right. Your point?
> BTW, where do you propose all the new space is
> coming from?
Huh? Why does it need to come from somewhere?????
> If it is not from the BB, how is it created and expanded?
Simple answer: we don't know.
> As the u. expands, it seems that objects are moving more
> apart, as if space were moving them apart or as if their inertia due
> to the BB were moving them apart.
Both are from the observational point of view valid descriptions, but
the first does more resemble the math of the theory.
> I would go with the latter cause of
> the effect, as space has not a power with which to move mass, nor to
> curve space, for that matter, as Einstein contended.
As I explained above: the coordinates of the objects remain the same,
i.e. they do not move "with respect to space". But due to the expansion
of space, the distance between them nevertheless increases.
> I also think that space is absolute
In what sense?
> except where the BB has emptied
> out (and apparently is still emptying out)
Huh? Do you want to claim that the BB is still happening?
> positive and negative
> energies into empty space which is now not empty but filled with such
> energies of which some have been converted into mass, and that space
> is now our universe.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by saying that the BB "empties
out energies into emoty space".
Bye,
Bjoern
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