Re: Where all the physical laws in place before the Big Bang occured?
From: Bjoern Feuerbacher (feuerbac_at_thphys.uni-heidelberg.de)
Date: 09/23/04
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:10:26 +0200
Gernot Frisch wrote:
>>>Now, the big bang theory says: In the beginning, all material was
>>>concentrated in one tiny spot.
>>
>>No, it doesn't say that.
>><http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html>
>
>
>>>- Where did the matter come from
>>
>>>From energy.
>
>
> Where does the energy come from?
Simple answer: we don't know so far.
> There was no explosion? Tell me, what else was it?
The Big Bang was the coming into existence of space and time.
And we still don't know what exactly happened there, and if there
was a "before" or not, since we would need a quantum theory of
gravity to describe the very earliest moments of the universe
- a theory which we still do not have.
I'll quote Peebles for you, a famous cosmologist:
"That the universe is expanding and cooling is the essence of the big
bang theory. You will notice I have said nothing about an 'explosion' -
the big bang theory describes how our universe is evolving, not how it
began." (Scientific American, January 2001, page 44) Try reading that
whole issue - but beware: you might actually learn something.
Or try reading this page, written by Steinhardt, another famous
cosmologist:
<http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/>
Concentrate on the section "What is the Big Bang model?". But the
other stuff is also worth reading.
>>>Why are some moons of the saturn and 2 planets in our solar
>>>system rotating the oposite direction?
>>
>>Hint: collisions.
>
>
> Now that would be a real coincidence.
No, not at all.
> After a collision some moons do
> rotate clockwise, some anticlockwise, but all rotate in the same
> direction around the saturn?
Yes, indeed. Try learning some basic celestial mechanics, then you
will understand how that works.
Oh, BTW, the second "rotate" in your sentence above should be "revolve".
>>>You cannot proove it, you have to believe it.
>>
>>Hint: nothing in experimental science is ever proven. But that does
>>in no way imply that one has to believe it.
>
>
> If you can't proove it, why do you claim it?
And you claimed in another post that you are a scientist? I don't
believe you.
>>>The bible says: In the beginning "God created everything". Now,
>>>where did God come from?
>>
>>How is it relevant what the Bible says? You could as well cite from
>>the Vedas.
>
>
> Because I believe it's the word of God.
Nice. So what? Billions of other people believe that other religious
texts are the word of God(s).
>>>Now, basically some say "in the beginning dirt...", and some say
>>>"... God..."
>>
>>No scientist says "in the beginning dirt".
>
>
> In the beginning...what then?
In the beginning of the universe: energy.
Had you another beginning in mind here? Perhaps the beginning of life?
BTW: your own Bible says that God created man from dust. Where is the
big difference to dirt?
>>>After all, neither is science, both are religion.
>>
>>Thanks for showing that you have not the fainstest clue what you
>>are talking about.
>>
>>Hint: scientistis have *evidence* for the Big Bang Theory.
>
>
> Yes? Give it to me.
I am not a cosmologist, so I am not familiar with all the evidence,
but what quickly comes to mind is:
* redshift (if you claim that this can be explained in another way,
like "tired light", please explain how these other ways explain all
the other stuff below)
* time dilation of supernova light curves
* data obtained from gravitational lensing
* dependence of the surface brightness of galaxies on distance
* the existence of the Cosmic Microwave Background, the fluctuations
in it agreeing with predictions of inflation, the temperature of it
changing with time, the large scale structures we observe today growing
out of the fluctuations
* abundance of light elements, and the changes of that with time
* age of stars
* changes in galaxy structures with time
> Sorry for being stupid.
"ignorant" may be the better word here.
>>>Choose yours properly, because if the bible is right, God created
>>>this earth, He owns it, He makes the rules. We all disobeyed these
>>>rules and there must be punishment.
>>
>>When did we all disobey these rules?
>
>
> "Thee shall not lie".
Where, exactly, does the Bible say that?
And why should the punishment for such a small sin be eternal
hellfire?
> Have you ever told a lie? Have you never been
> envious? Don't lie!
Yes, I have been. I admit that freely.
>>>Either you can bear it youself (go to hell) or you can choose Jesus
>>>bear it for you.
>>
>>Hint: Pascal's wager has not been convincing for several centuries
>>now.
>
>
> Sorry, I don't get it. Can you explain?
The argument you presented above is essentially known as "Pascal's wager".
Try reading up on this.
>>>He loves you, so He beared it for you.
>>
>>Present evidence for these assertions, please.
>
>
> Read it all up. He wrote it down for you.
God wrote no books. Humans wrote the Bible.
If you want to claim that God dictated the text or inspired
them to write that stuff, present evidence for that assertion,
please.
I expect the "argument from fulfilled prophecies" now.....
>>>All you have to do is pray to Him, accept that you sinned, ask Him
>>>to show you what to do next and receive forgiveness and eternal
>>>life.
>>
>>And that is relevant for the scientific evidence of the Big Bang
>>Theory how?
>
>
> I just wanted you to know - for those who didn't before.
It's hard to miss that, considering that Christians like you go
around preaching all the time.
>>I do not laugh about you - I pity you. You go through life with your
>>religious blinders and don't see reality.
>
>
> I get the same feeling when I read you writing. Someone of us is
> wrong. If you are, it makes no difference to me after I'm dead. If I
> am... oh dear.
And yet again, Pascal's wager. Seems to be your favourite debating
tactic.
Bye,
Bjoern
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