Re: World energy system should be based on alcohol
From: quibbler (quibbler247_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 11/01/04
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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:46 -0700
In article <418654AD.C5CE4CC8@hate.spam.net>, UncleAl0@hate.spam.net
says...
> habshi wrote:
> >
> > Hydrogen is just too messy and dangerous and takes up too much space.
> > We need a liquid based system . Alcohol can be used in most engines without modification and is 80%
> > as efficient as oil.
> > So wind energy , biomass etc. can easily be converted to it . Use the electricity to split
> > water and react the hydrogen wih carbon dioxide extracted from air to make methanol and convert this
> > to ethanol . This can then be transported by tankers from Antarctica etc.
>
> Idiot wog, where do you mine ethanol?
Waste cheese permeate, corn stover processed with cellulase, weeds,
potato waste, vinasse waste, trester waste, etc.
> Idiot wog, why are you carrying around fuel that is already 1/3
> burned?
You can burn a blend of ethanol and other biofuels, such as
depolymerized biodiesel. Yes, I'm aware that ethanol can break down
some of the lubricating properties of biodiesel, but its still better
than petrodiesel.
> Idiot wog, how will you denature fuel ethanol?
How about just changing regulations so that it doesn't have to be
denatured. If people drink it then that's their problem.
> Idiot wog, how will you compensate VICTIMS! who drink denatured fuel
> ethanol?
How do we compensate victims who drink gasoline?
> Idiot wog, how will you deal with hygroscopic ethanol
By not exposing it to water, presumably.
> and corrosion?
In case you haven't heard, hydrogen is far more corrosive than ethanol.
> Idiot wog, how will you reprogram 600 million gasoline engines?
Many new cars are already dual fuel or ethanol adapted.
>
> Idiot wog,
>
> http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html
>
> Prof. David Pimentel of Cornell University calculated energy consumed
> in growing corn,
Using corn is actually a relatively old technology
> processing the grain, and distilling ethanol versus
> the energy generated by its combustion.
Fortunately that's not how it's done anymore. The corn waste, like the
shaft, leaves, cob, etc, can be put into a bacterial digester.
> It requires 131,000 British
> thermal units (Btus) to produce one gallon of ethanol, which yields
> 77,000 Btus of fuel energy. That's a 70% net energy *loss.*
Nature also had to invest large amounts of energy into refining oil with
geothermal energy and pressure. But since nature already did that for
us you guys ignore it as an energy input.
> The
> federal government paid tens of $billions of tax credits and subsidies
> to ethanol producers like agri-giant Archer-Daniels-Midland.
Which allowed us to reduce emissions, support genetically modified crop
research, help control erosion, etc.
>
> Photosynthesis is very optimistically equivalent to producing 15
> bbl/day-mile^2 of diesel fuel and ignoring all energy inputs.
>
> http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Saccharum_officinarum.html
>
> Fat is so cheap that it makes biodiesel only costing two or three
> times as much as the real thing.
Not true. Thermal depolymerization is estimated to cost perhaps $10-15
per barrel. There are billions of pounds of fat and tendon which would
otherwise be wasted. There are billions of liters of deep fryer oil in
the US which would also go to waste.
> If there were any demand for fat as
> fuel the price would skyrocket, as waste fat is well used as it is.
How about the demand for turkey entrails, feathers, plastic bottles, etc
all of which can be handled by thermal depolymerization in a self
sustaining reaction.
>
> The most efficient uses of bio fuel burn corn in a stove designedto
> burn wood pellets. Heating with corn at $2.50 a bushel is the same as
> using $(US)0.64/gallon propane. The best deal is to burn the anhydrous
> ammonia and not bother planting the corn. You must have a way to
> condense the exhaust and store the nitric acid for resale, and you
> have to keep it burning so it produces nitric acid and not merely
> nitrogen oxides. That one makes money.
Please try not to be stupid. Firstly, one doesn't have to use chemical
fertilizers. One can use the waste pulp from digesters or even sewage
waste on these crops if they are only being used for fuel and not human
consumption.
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