Re: Wind energy a boon for farmers - tenfold returns !

From: Jim Greenfield (greenfield_7_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 11/22/04 

Date: 21 Nov 2004 23:21:15 -0800

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message news:<v5mdnc2LEMie4z3cRVn-1w@rcn.net>...
> In article <3c4afb26.0411181559.11017b5f@posting.google.com>,
> greenfield_7@hotmail.com (Jim Greenfield) wrote:
>
> I've been having newreader bugs so I don't know if my answer
> ever made it out. I'm replying again.
>
> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message
> news:<iOWdnUTlk4xQ4wHcRVn-rA@rcn.net>...
> >> In article <3c4afb26.0411171510.62a06ca5@posting.google.com>,
> >> greenfield_7@hotmail.com (Jim Greenfield) wrote:
> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message
> news:<P5qdnXeMYZv1rgbcRVn-pw@rcn.net>...
> >> >> In article <3c4afb26.0411151917.46dc0ce8@posting.google.com>,
> >> >> greenfield_7@hotmail.com (Jim Greenfield) wrote:
> >> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message
> news:<MO6dnfq5qIXuAAXcRVn-iw@rcn.net>...
> >> >> >> In article <3c4afb26.0411141814.7719122f@posting.google.com>,
> >> >> >> greenfield_7@hotmail.com (Jim Greenfield) wrote:
> >> >> >> >alexterrell@yahoo.com (Alex Terrell) wrote in message
> news:<d81e59c9.0411140811.6eabf483@posting.google.com>...
> >> >> >> >> greenfield_7@hotmail.com (Jim Greenfield) wrote in message
> >> >> >> news:<3c4afb26.0411041512.6e3f4074@posting.google.com>...
> >> >> >> <snip>
> >> >> >> >
>
> >> >Northwest coast of Australia has tides of 30' charging in and out of
> >> >narrow deep canyons. The potential for ocean/tidal energy production
> >> >must be awesome! Nearest demand (city of 1m people) ? ......1500miles
> >> >away!
> >> >>
> >> >> >Either one is going to impact on other ocean use (sailing, fishing,
> >> >> >transport lanes etc)
> >> >>
> >> >> So far, the only arguments here against building those windmills
> >> >> is aesthetics and NIMBY. The rich on this island aren't thinking
> >> >> about self-reliance at all.
> >> >
> >> >The self reliance on wind comes down to either having a storage system
> >> >(hydrogen?) for when it doesn't blow, or else a huge grid which takes
> >> >power from where the wind is, to where it isn't, at any time. This
> >> >would entail having much greater capacity for generation in the local
> >> >area, than is necessary.
> >> >Investment capital in the projects might be unsustainable.
> >>
> >> The figure reported on the radio was $70 million (IIRC), which
> >> seems terribly expensive for providing power to one island.
> >> One also has to mulitply this figure by Massachusetts' corruption
> >> factor which seems to vary from 10 to 100...<ahem>before inflation.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Most of our electricity is gas produced. There is great wailing about
> >> >the recent hikes in electricity prices since recent privatisation of
> >> >supply. The major arguement of the principal producers is that their
> >> >capacity to supply must far exceed demand on most days, to meet peak
> >> >demand (summer cooling), or supply failures. Unless the investment
> >> >warrants thousands of these wind farms, they (us) will suffer the same
> >> >"just in case" power price extortion.
> >>
> >> One of the problems in the US is Congress' so-called privitazation.
> >> What they did was split generation biz from the distribution biz
> >> plus making it illegal for the two to communicate directly with
> >> each other.
> >
> >The govt here in its wisdom (joke) privatised the state own generation
> >and billing (supply), but not the distribution network.
>
> So what the government really did was "create jobs" that was
> designed to do no useful work.

The problem was that the "workers" as employed by the govt owned
entities did (according to neutral observers :-) ) F*A* work. The
unions could threaten supply at any time, in order to get a wage rise,
etc
The govt therefore moved that problem to the private sector.
Employees of private companies, I strongly suspect, are subject to
legally enforcable contracts which stop this threat.
>
>
> > .. This was in
> >order to "reduce electricity prices to the consumer, by encouraging
> >competition between producers." Result; an increase of 100% or so, and
> >still with the threats of more.
>
> heh. Not here. The price reduction was set into law so the
> power companies (both generators and distributors) aren't
> making profits so they're have to reduce maintenance costs
> which means the whole fucking grid is a now shoestring and
> nobody is allowed to touch the two tin cans.

Unreal! These multi-nationals need only cry "poor" to the govt to get
a electricity price hike passed on to the consumer.
The govt shrugs and blames the previous party who instigated the
change.
>
>
> > ..Every now and then, a price hike is
> >"justified" by the price of the gas which runs the turbines, going up.
> >But guess who owns the gas?
> >Meanwhile, even with a line passing within a few hundred meters, the
> >price of electricity connection in the country makes rural building
> >horrendously expensive- sometimes the value of the building!
>
> Right. Costs of doing business have gone up and the revenue for
> selling the product has been frozen by the government; this is how
> fucking idiots, a.k.a. politicians, make sure that consumers
> don't have to pay for what they use. The only way companies can
> glean enough income so they can stay in business is through
> all their one-time services such as installation. As those prices
> go up, new installations will go down. Now you have an economy
> that is starting the basis of sprialing down with no sanity checks
> in place.

I haven't heard BIG business squeal too much. Their volume still
apparently gets them a reasonable deal. It is the house-holder and
small business who are getting screwed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I read somewhere that it takes more energy to mine the materials,
> >> >> >transport, and construct, a solar panel, than will ever be likely to
> >> >> >have extracted. Do you know anything about that?
> >> >>
> >> >> Nothing. When I looked into solar energy I was insterested in
> >> >> self-reliance during power absence crises. I assumed that I
> >> >> would be paying for the extra energy used for manufacturing
> >> >> as a trade-off to access to continuous power.
> >> >
> >> >My cousin has that $60,000 solar system in the world's sunniest
> >> >location.
> >> >He still has to regularly back it up with the diesel generator (2
> >> >households).
> >>
> >> That's what I figured would happen. There was or is a company
> >> just north of here who advertised a device that would generate
> >> electric power off boilers (fueled by oil). I called them up
> >> and asked if they built these devices for residences. Nope.
> >> I suggest that they think about doing such a project and
> >> volunteered to be a field test site. (That way I'd get my
> >> device even if they decided it wouldn't turn enough profit.)
> >> Nope.
> >>
> >> I looked at the backup generators getting sold in retail.
> >> Everything has to be automatic. I don't want automatic. I
> >> want a switch that cuts off external service coming in
> >> when I turn on my generator. The specs provided on the shelves
> >> are worthless to me. This may be due to my ignorance but I
> >> don't think so.
> >>
> >> I've been to the fire department, my fuel oil people..and
> >> somebody else....electricians. Nobody is thinking about
> >> self-sufficiency in a long-term emergency.
> >
> >I guess it is a more pressing worry where winter temperatures can kill
> >with a prolonged power failure.
>
> It's not only kill. It's also worrisome because of frozen pipes.
> One frozen pipe will condemn the building; now its inhabitants
> have no place to live.

In that case, no way known would I depend on electricity for heating.
If Alqueda get a good hit on your grid....................
>
> > .. Here we would merely get a bit chilly,
> >more blankets, and try not to rely on the frige.
> >Cost of production doesn't seem to be the main criteria for pricing
> >these days.
>
> It can't. The new regulations hand-tied the price.
>
> >On a recent trip to New Zealand, where there huge hydro and geothermal
> >schemes should logically supply very cheap power, not so! One entity
> >owns the dam, another the generator, another the distribution net,
> >still another does the billing......and all on-selling without
> >actually doing a thing besides shuffle paper!
>
> They're setting themselves up for an economic depression.

Well someone has to take up the slack in employment which technology /
computers has caused!

Jim G