Re: Wind energy a boon for farmers - tenfold returns !

From: Tim O'Flaherty (pinwheelsfudge_at_gwi.net)
Date: 11/23/04 

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:37:21 -0500

<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:HpKdnfxoZ8XfegDcRVn-pw@rcn.net...
> In article <U-mdnUjKa451uQDcRVn-pA@gwi.net>,
> "Tim O'Flaherty" <pinwheelsfudge@gwi.net> wrote:
> >
> ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:RMmdnV1wrc2iPAHcRVn-ow@rcn.net...
> >> In article <B8SdnfHju93tHgHcRVn-sA@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >> >In article <vsSdnUsfppSLdQbcRVn-2Q@gwi.net>,
> >> > "Tim O'Flaherty" <pinwheelsfudge@gwi.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>"Alex Terrell" <alexterrell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:d81e59c9.0411161514.627f3377@posting.google.com...
> >> >>> "Tim O'Flaherty" <pinwheelsfudge@gwi.net> wrote in message
> >> >>news:<t4qdnb1uB6lslQfcRVn-iQ@gwi.net>...
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> Explanation in order.
> >>
> >> One of the reasons I'm being such an *** about this subject
> >> is because I'm getting a definite feeling that people are
> >> deciding to disallow building refineries and power plants
> >> because of this new promise of cheap and free technology.
> >
> >Nothing cheap or free in windpower but it is competitive. It would be
even
> >more so if the hidden costs of oil were paid at the pump or on the
utility
> >bill.
>
> I don't think my bill hides the cost because there is a fuel surcharge
> line item. I doubt very much that hidden costs of oil don't show
> up in the gas pump price. A large chunk of our gasoline price is
> taxes which go directly to a black hole, AFAICT.
> >
> >Regarding refineries, a story on NPR
>
> I smell a rat :-); NPR's bias is to be highly suspect these days.
>
> > ..yesterday noted that while a lack of
> >refineries is often cited as a bottleneck they aren't being built because
> of
> >the declining raw material stocks.
>
> Sigh! What decline? Note that these idiots are interpreting
> the refinery bottleneck as a decline in raw material rather than
> a maximum in capacity.

Well to be honest, decline was my term but the thrust of the item was the
expectation that oil as a resource was peaking.
It is also a lot harder to clear the environmental hurdles for a big project
like this today than it was in 1976 when the last US refinery was built.
Still I don't doubt that a lack of refineries is a useful way of jacking up
prices though so the incentive not to build is there. I don't think there
is a connection between this and expectations of green energy, just the same
disconnect that has people driving gas hogs with yellow ribbons on the back.
>
> [muttering emoticon here] If I were king of the world, I think I'd
> ban the % sign from all keyboards. That is the most abused
> statistic glyph.
>
> > .. A refinery is a big ticket item, who
> >wants to make that investment without a guarantee of raw material for
it's
> >lifetime?
>
> This doesn't explain why working refineries have been turned off.
> One of these days, I'm going to investigate that one.
>

I remember a few years ago the loss of one plant making a key chemical for
the production of anti-freeze drove the price sky high right before winter.
It's a good way of gaming the market like Enron and others did with energy
during California's troubles.

Regards,
Tim O