Re: Runaway Global Warming Possible!

From: Fred J. McCall (fmccall_at_earthlink.net)
Date: 02/04/05 

Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:41:27 GMT

Joshua Halpern <vze23qvd@verizon.net> wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> Joshua Halpern <vze23qvd@verizon.net> wrote:
:>
:> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> Joshua Halpern <vze23qvd@verizon.net> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> :> "Vendicar Decarian" <VD@Pyro.net> wrote:
:> :> :>
:> :> :> :"Fred J. McCall" <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:> :> :> :> I didn't say anything about consumption. We produce less of the
:> :> :> :> world's CO2 than we produce of the world's GDP.
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> : Meaningless. GDP is a fiction. CO2 is a physical entity.
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> : You can double GDP by doubling the velocity of money. Whoop de doo.
:> :> :>
:> :> :> And just how do you accomplish that?
:> :> :
:> :> :Come, come, the rate at which money is spent has a large effect on GDP,
:> :>
:> :> Only marginally true. There is little evidence that the velocity of
:> :> money really varies much except at the very extremes.
:> :>
:> :> :which is why in a recession rational lawmakers cut taxes on the bottom
:> :> :of the income distribution.
:> :>
:> :> Wrong choice. A cut there tends to get spent on non-durable goods,
:> :> which does little to nothing for an economic slowdown or accumulated
:> :> inventory.
:> :
:> :Ah you are speaking ex cathedra.
:>
:> No, I am speaking sense.
:>
:> :As my wife points out the Chinese and
:> :the Japanese did real well on the buying of durable goods in the last
:> :tax cuts, or maybe you have not noticed that the US has little
:> :manufacturing of durable goods left.
:>
:> Sorry, but that's just a bit nuts. What do you think drives the
:> economy, insofar as 'demand' goes these days?
:
:Buying Chinese imports.

Wrong.

:> You might want to point out to your wife that we haven't had the sort
:> of tax cut I'm suggesting, so what her opinion (and where did she get
:> her economics degree?) is telling you isn't really appropriate to this
:> discussion.
:
:You show me yours, I'll show you hers.

University of Colorado, 1984.
 
:> :> And that's disregarding the fact that you can't 'cut
:> :> taxes' on people WHO ARE NOT PAYING ANY, which is generally true of
:> :> the "bottom of the income distribution".
:> :
:> :They are paying a lot of payroll taxes
:>
:> Yes, we can punt Social Security (which is what the payroll taxes
:> fund).
:
:The current Social Security Tax covers much more than is currently paid
:out. Since the regime intends to kill off Social Security, why not
:restore the balance so that it returns to the level at which what is
:taken is is paid out.

Because then it goes bankrupt in just a very few years. You do
understand why they raised the rate above mere replenishment in the
first place, right?

:> :and sales taxes, which can be cut.
:>
:> There is no Federal sales tax. So what you propose is piecemeal
:> action by state.
:
:Gee, you mean you live in one of those don;t pay any tax states?

Gee, I mean precisely what I said - there is no such thing as a
Federal Sales Tax.

:You
:might also notice that there is now a deduction on the Federal Income
:Tax for state sales taxes in states where there is no income tax.

For states where there is an income tax, too. Or you can deduct your
state income taxes, instead. All of which, of course, is still
irrelevant to the point that there is no federal sales tax (so the
feds can't cut it) and you can't cut taxes for people who are already
paying zero.

:> :As a matter of fact, Virginia cut the sales tax on food last year,
:> :and that seemed to work.
:>
:> Seemed to work to do WHAT? Since food will quickly go past its 'use
:> by' date, stimulating the consumption of food does damned little in
:> the way of economic impact (except for helping out grocery stores)
:> since it will have to be replenished whether it sells or not.
:
:Food, rent, clothing, heat, autos (some are still made in the US), home
:furnishings.

Except cutting taxes on food (which is what we were talking about)
doesn't provide people with that much money. I note you list
manufactured items up there. I thought we didn't manufacture anything
in this country any more (according to you).

:You give people in the bottom 40% more disposable income
:and they spend it.

Ok, if you take roughly the bottom 40% (I used roughly 41.5%, as that
gave me an even break on income) of the returns (which gets you up to
an income of $22k) and simply say they will pay no tax at all (and
many of them do not already), that puts a whopping $16 billion (out of
total collections of $888 billion (2001 numbers)) back into the
economy. Not much of a stimulus, particularly when you look at where
people in those income levels are going to spend the money.

:Then the people who get that money spend it, and so
:on. By definition increased spending (which is what is generated)
:increases economic activity. Increased economic activity is what you
:need to end a recession. You appear to misunderstand that once the
:money is spent initially, the people who get it spend it again.

And you appear to misunderstand that the Federal government doesn't
just throw the money into a black hole. They spend it too, you see.
So why not just pump the Federal deficit an extra $18 billion and get
the same effect?
 
:> :Your usual red herring. So much for that one.
:>
:> Your usual red herring. So much for that one.
:
:Your usual red herring. So much for that one.

Your usual red herring. So much for that one.
 
:> :> Sensible lawmakers tend to cut taxes on the upper middle class if
:> :> they're looking for economic stimulus. They're the ones who tend to
:> :> spend the extra cash on things that will actually spur the economy.
:> :
:> :Oh right. Enjoy your fantasy, unless you define upper middle class as
:> :houshold income below $50K.
:>
:> You really do need to get out and learn something rather than keeping
:> your head so firmly up and locked.
:>
:> :> There seems to be a dearth of sensible lawmakers about these days.
:> :>
:> :True. Just look at the Congress.
:>
:> Of course, if some on Usenet are representative of the voters, it
:> explains a lot....
:
:Another area of agreement.

Well, there had to be some somewhere, didn't there? 

-- 
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
 territory."
                                      --G. Behn

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