Re: Predictions from Mathematical models

From: Mark Fergerson (nunya_at_biz.ness)
Date: 02/11/05 

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:43:05 -0700

Mike Helland wrote:
> Mark Fergerson wrote:

<resnip>

>> ... perhaps it'd help if you'd state more clearly what you're
>> trying to replace; the current kinds of mathematical models used in the
>>Scientific Method, or the philosophy behind the Scientific Method?

> In the very first message of this thread I said:
>
> <quote>
> One excersize that might pay off in trying to over come what appears to
> be an irresolvable disagreement in the theories of physics, is
> considering a different method of predicting measurment outcomes from
> mathematical models.
>
> Here is the idea that I came up with:
>
> Instead of taking a value of of the system, we need to investigate the
> system to find out what observers in the system know about the system.
> </quote>
>
> Is should be clear that I am trying to replace the method by which
> predictions are derived from mathematical models.
>
> Hence the title of this thread.
>
> The old method is:
>
> 1. Compare the values of the mathematical model to measurements in our
> world

   I would have said "Compare the predicted values (results of "working
out the equations")...", and I believe we're in agreement on the sense
behind those particular semantics.

> The new method is to:
>
> 1. Arrange the values of the mathematical model into a modeled observer
> of the modeled world in which it exists and functions

   "Arrange the _values_ of the mathematical model"? What values?
Observed properties of entities ordinarily used as input data to
mathematical models? Relationship-type properties of one or more
candidate models used to parse input data? ISTM the latter do not
qualify as "values", unless you're going philosophical on me.

   Alternatively, does that phrase refer to the predictions of said
model? If so, why bother simulating reality when we have _real_ reality
to check them against?

   Is the arrangement of "values of the mathematical model" a
mathematical model of the mathematical model, or not?

   Is the model of the observer a mathematical model, or not? How
accurately does it correspond to an actual observer, and how do you know?

> 2. Find out what that modeled observer has measured of its modeled
> world

   IOW, run a simulation of reality within a computer program that
simulates "working out the equations"? How is this different from what's
traditionally done with mind and pencil/paper? Do you intend your model
of the observer within the simulation to be a _complete_ model of a
human mind?

   Alternatively, determine the difference between direct measurement
and extrapolations (predictions) of observed relationships dictated by
the mathematical system used to parse the original inputs? This is
already a feature of the mundane Scientific Model.

> 3. Compare that information to what we measure in our world

   I still fail to see how this recursive plug-in to mundane scientific
procedure will teach us anything.

>>>I'd be happy to assist in developing your understanding, but until
>>> you begin to ask specific questions, all I can do is repeat myself in
>>>different ways.
>>
>> I have a better idea; why not say exactly what it is you think
>> your "new method" will replace?

> I have. Many times.
>
> Here is your homework:
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/browse_frm/thread/ffeac6654dd8d818/ba6afcb77075d2ee#ba6afcb77075d2ee

   This discussion is occurring here (sci.physics). I am discussing this
with you, not others.

> http://www.techmocracy.net/science/time.htm
>
> Read carefully. Think slowly. Repeat.

   I have. As you point out on the webpage, it's a work in progress,
which may explain some of what I perceive as a lack of clarity.

   But I see right at the top what we were discussing in the other
thread, namely your definition of "nature" as that which we experience
within our minds, as distinct from the Universe exterior to our minds.

   Have you decided that our sensoria are on one side or the other of
this division?

   I ask that because your discussion of the Newtonian distinction
between Universe and Nature is entirely, as you say, philosophical, and
I prefer to resolve philosophical arguments about reality by looking at
_all_ of reality, including the sensorium.

   Your discussion of "absolute" and "relative" (making such concepts as
position, time, velocity, etc. features of our thought processes and not
necessarily features of external reality) as arising from the first
distinction follows directly from the philosophical assumption, and I
don't see this as resolved.

   Mark L. Fergerson

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