Re: Aharonov-Bohm & scalar wave applications

From: Ceriel Nosforit (firstname_at_saunalahti.fi)
Date: 03/23/05 

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:56:18 +0200

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:48:21 +0100, Bjoern Feuerbacher
<feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote:

>Ceriel Nosforit wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:12:02 +0100, Bjoern Feuerbacher
>> <feuerbac@thphys.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ceriel Nosforit wrote:
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>There are a few things which elude me, maybe of importance to this.
>>>>Maybe you can answer?
>>>>A. Electromagnetic potential, voltage, virtual 'field'.
>>>
>>>What do you mean with the last term?
>>
>>
>> 'Effect not actualized', maybe. Say if you put a charged particle
>> whitin a distance of another charged particle, they effect each other
>> according to what can be read from a graph.
>
>Huh? They affect each other according to Coulomb's law. Do you mean
>a graph of that law? Why not apply that law directly instead of
>looking at such a graph?

A purpose of the exercise was to understand what it says rather than
stare oneself blind at the words.

>> However, when not effecting anything, can one say the field exists?
>
>That's a question for philosophy, not physics. Does a falling tree
>make a sound when noone is there to hear it?

Is Shrödinger's Cat dead or alive?
Oh my. No difference between philosophy and physics here.

>
>> Can one say anything about its properties? Sure one can, but one is
>> talking about something virtual then.
>
>You seem to use the word "virtual" in a quite fuzzy sense here.

No I'm not. I'm using it as it is defined.

>
>> IIRC, I developed this idea when struggeling with the word 'field' in
>> relation to magnetism. My teachers, as per usual, were mostly ritually
>> reciting things their teachers had been ritually reciting, so they
>> weren't of much use. So I created an 'image' of what this thing would
>> look like in 4D,
>
>How a field looks like in 4D? Huh?
>
>Do you know how "field" is defined in physics?

I probably have read it, but found the defenition useless. Another
purpose of the exercise was to produce something that I understand and
can use.

>> and got how every point around a charged particle
>> measured at the same instant would look like.
>
>And what has that to do with magnetism?

It's as if a graph of the field.

>> - What we see is always
>> one measurement at the time, in linear time.
>
>What is "linear time"? Is there any other time? Exponential time
>perhaps? Logarithmic time?

If you videotape a mechanical system and run it in slow-motion, it
looks as if the forces on it are much weaker. If you run it backwards
the forces appear as if reversed. Apparently all of mechanics has a
function in time.
The phrase "linear time" has been used to describe the situation when
the tape rolls as normal, so with non-linear time we are free to jump
to any frame of the film.

>> "Virtual field", because I figure when electrons interact to push each
>> other away they got to do so by some medium. - Photons.
>
>Your use of "medium" here is quite strange. "Mediator" or something
>like that would be more to the point.

The word "mediator" is another form of the word "medium".

>> But electrons do not radiate like stars,
>
>But they radiate anyway (in a sense). Ever heard of the self-energy of
>an electron, and how it is represented in QED?

Never.

>> so the photons are only there when being measured.
>
>Sorry, I don't see how you get the second part of the sentence from
>the first.

The measuring devices interact with the thing being measured. The
quanta of the measurment is the photon.

>> Therefore, photons in a magnetic field are virtual.
>
>You don't know what "virtual photon" means in particle physics
>(especially in QED), right?

I work according to the understanding I gained from someone who really
did.

>> I hope I made sense...
>
>No, sorry.

You're not trying hard enough. Many of your arguments have been simply
to oppose what I say rather than hold a meaningful conversation. This
could have been avoided if you tried to actually understand what I was
saying rather than deny everything that wasn't immediately apparent to
you. It also tells a great deal about your state of mind when reading
and replying. - It is not constructive.

>
>>>>Is this non-local in spacetime?
>>>
>>>One can only say for *effects* if they are local or non-local (BTW,
>>>what exactly do you mean with that term?). So it makes no sense to
>>>ask if electromagnetic potential, voltage, or field is non-local.
>>
>>
>> What I mean by non-local spacitime is basically anywhere, anytime.
>
>Sorry, I have no clue what you mean here.

Frames on a video tape. As explained above.

>
>> (Bye bye Aristotelean causality. Would be tough as hell to make sense
>> of, but I figure if Conway's Law applies, it applies everywhere,
>
>Sorry, I don't see what Conway's law has to do with that, or what it
>has to do with physics in general. You do mean this, don't you?
><http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/C/Conways-Law.html>

It's that law. If you don't see how it applies, I really can't help
you. You will have to contemplate the matter on your own.

>> and the human brain would not be able to fit something more complex than
>> itself.
>
>Huh? Again, what has that to do with the problem at hand, and with
>Conway's law?

I've written this entire thing whitin a parenthesis for a reason.

>
>
>>>>B. Is there any rule as to in which direction a charged particle in
>>>>acceleration sends out its (non-virtual) photon?
>>>
>>>A statistical distribution, given by the radiation characteristics
>>>of synchrotron radiation.
>>
>>
>> ...So usually in the direction of acceleration?
>
>No. Where did you get that from?

Nowhere at all. I wanted more information.

>IIRC, for a charged particle on a circular orbit, with relativistic
>speeds, the radiation is mainly in the direction of movement, whereas
>the acceleration is perpendicular to that direction.

So when the electron cannon in my TV blasts away at the screen, the
radiation spreads out in the same plane as the screen?
Also, does this not mean there is no detectable difference between
acceleration and deceleration? ...And wouldn't this mean half the
electrons in the tube go the 'wrong' way?

>
>> A charged particle in motion has a magnetic field, but if I'm moving
>> in with the particle, in parallel with it, can I detect the magnetic
>> field?
>
>No.

Thanks.

>> If yes, then we should be constantly surrounded by immensely
>> strong magnetic fields as we move through space.
>
>Err, how does that follow?
>

If the magnetic field was detectable, at the speeds we're moving
through space and mass of the Earth, the resulting magnetic field
would be astronomical.

I guess this is why Earth's magnetic field does a swell job of
protecting us from the sun. Concidering the speed the particles move
at, the magnetic field is again astronomical. 

-- 
Over on the mountain
Thunder magic spoke,
"Let the people know my wisdom,
Fill the land with smoke."

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