Re: repost : Continuity of Space-Time attn Bob Kolker -


Lefty wrote:
> I think I have an answer for ya Bob -
> The first thing you need in order to answer this is to understand a
simple
> trick that time can do. It's all downhill from there.
>
> To observe time you must have motion of some kind. There are some
very
> big things in motion. If the motion of a very huge system cannot be
> observed, but you know that it is in motion, then time also becomes
> unobservable in that context. Relative to such an observer, time
becomes
> nonexistent in that context. Somewhere out there in space, on some
vast
> scale, time ceases to exist relative to observers on our scale.
> Same holds for the quantum scale.
>
> Thats the key Bob,.......that is the key.
>
> Lefty
Lefty No time No space!!! That place doesn't exist lefty.
What would cause time out there to end relative to here?
Time never ends relative to anything.
Time continues.

>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Bob Kolker Mar 12 1995,
>
> Is the continuity of space-time a mathematical aritifact? What
empirical
> evidence either supports or refutes the continuity of space-time? Or
> turning the quesition about, what evidence refutes or supports the
> descreteness of space-time?
>
> Then does the fact energy comes in descrete increments have a bearing
on the
> question?
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> Philip Gibbs Mar 13 1995,
>
> There have been some experimental tests of the continuity of
space-time
> in scattering experiments but the length scale on which they probe
> is limited by the energy of the particles. A particle accelerator is
like
> a powerful microscope, the higher energy it reaches the higher the
> resolution. All tests so far have shown space-time to be continuous
> at the scales tested but space-time could be discrete at smaller
scales.
> Here are a couple of references:
>
> TESTING THE DISCRETENESS OF SPACE-TIME AT LOW-ENERGIES.
> By G. Chardin (DAPNIA, Saclay). DAPNIA-SPP-94-15, May 1994. 8pp.
> Talk given at 29th Rencontres de
> Moriond: Perspectives in Particle Physics, Atomic Physics and
Gravitation,
> Villars-sur-Ollon, Switzerland,
> 22-29 Jan 1994.
>
>
> ON TESTING LOCAL QFT AT LHC.
> By N.N. Khuri (Rockefeller U.). RU-94-5-B, Mar 1994. 7pp.
> Talk given at 8th Les Rencontres de Physique de la
> Vallee d'Aoste: Results and Perspectives in Particle Physics, La
Thuile,
> Italy, 6-12 Mar 1994.
> e-Print Archive: hep-ph/9405406
>
>
> The theoretical situation is another matter. Physicists have been
> speculating about the small scale structure of space-time since at
> least the dawn of the quantum theory. Here are a few quotes:
>
>
> ``... perhaps the success of the Heisenberg method points to a purely
> algebraic method of description of nature, that is, to the
elimination of
> continuous functions from physics. Then, however, we must give up, by
> principle, the space-time continuum ...''
> Einstein 1936.
>
>
> ``.. most probably, the continuity of space-time is just an
approximation
> similar to the one we use in condensed matter or hydrodynamics.''
> Polyakov'' 1993
>
>
> ``.. every physical quantity, every it, derives its ultimate
significance
> from bits, a conclusion which we epitomise in the phrase, It from
Bit''
> Wheeler 1990
>
>
> ``In string theory there aren't four or ten dimensions. That's only
an
> approximation. In the deeper formulation of the theory the whole
notion of
> what we mean by a dimension of space-time will have to be altered.''
> Green 1988
>
>
> ``Although there have been suggestions that space-time may
> have a discrete structure I see no reason to abandon the continuum
theories
> that have been so successful''
> Hawking 1994
>
>
> I could go on, in fact most physicists who comment on the subject
(except
> Hawking) seem to believe that space-time is discrete in some sense at
small
> scales. This is of course bad news for alternative theorists who
think they
> are being revolutionary and contrary to establishment physics by
suggesting
> that space-time is discrete :)
>
>
> Interestingly, the motivations for believing in discrete spacetime
have
> changed over the years. Before quantum theory people simply observed
> that mathematical properties of real numbers such as irrationality
are not
> relevant to space-time measurements. The quantum theory led people to
> speculate that space-time must also be quantised in order to provide
> a scale for derivation of particle masses. Then renormalisation came
> along and they thought that it could not be consistent unless there
> was a physical cut-off in space-time at small lengths. More recently
> the inspiration comes from attempts to quantise gravity such as
> string theory.
>
>
> Of course we need to be more precise about what it means to say that
> space-time is discrete, this is difficult to define in a model
> independent way. A weaker statement which is easier to make sense of
> is that there is a minimum length scale or, slightly stronger, there
> are a finite number of physical degrees of freedom in a given region
> of space.
>
>
> The best evidence for a minimum length scale comes from attempts
> to quantise gravity. Almost all such attempts seem to indicate a
> minimum length at the Planck scale (10^-35m). A good paper on this
is:
>
>
> QUANTUM GRAVITY AND MINIMUM LENGTH.
> By Luis J. Garay (Imperial Coll., London). IMPERIAL-TP-93-94-20,
> Mar 1994. 22pp.
> Published in Int.J.Mod.Phys.A10:145-166,199­5.
> e-Print Archive: gr-qc/9403008
>
>
> Stronger conclusions come from attempts to resolve Hawking's "Black
> Hole information loss Paradox". 't Hooft has argued strongly that
> to resolve the paradox there must be a finite number of degrees of
> freedom in a space-time region:
>
>
> ON THE QUANTUM STRUCTURE OF A BLACK HOLE.
> By Gerard 't Hooft (Utrecht U.). Print-84-0924 (UTRECHT), Oct 1984.
33pp.
> Published in Nucl.Phys.B256:727,1985.
>
>
> The biggest difficulty in formulating discrete models of space-time
> is to do so in a way which keeps space-time symmetry. A regular
lattice
> is no good as a model of discrete space. Recently there have been
some new
> models of discrete space-time which respect symmetry principles
notably
> Noncommutative Geometry with quantum group symmetry, Lattice
Topological
> Field Theory and Event-symmetric Space-time.
>
>
>
==============================­==============================­==============
> =====
>
>
> To avoid going on forever let me just give a load more references
> including many proposals for discrete models of space-time:
>
>
> RANDOM GRAPHS AS A MODEL FOR PREGEOMETRY
> By F. Antonsen
> Published in Int. J. Theor. Phys. 33 1189 (1994)
>
>
> DISCRETE DIFFERENTIAL MANIFOLDS AND DYNAMIC ON NETWORKS.
> By Aristophanes Dimakis (Crete U.), Folkert Muller-Hoissen (Gottingen
U.),
> Francois Vanderseypen (Leuven
> U.). GOET-TP-88-94, (Received Aug 1994). 26pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9408114
>
>
> STRINGS AND LOOPS IN EVENT SYMMETRIC SPACE-TIME.
> By Phil Gibbs. PEG-03-94, Jul 1994. 32pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9407136
>
>
> EVENT SYMMETRIC OPEN STRING FIELD THEORY.
> By Phil Gibbs. PEG-02-94, May 1994. 11pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9405172
>
>
> MODELS ON EVENT SYMMETRIC SPACE-TIME.
> By Phil Gibbs. PEG-01-94, Apr 1994. 20pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9404139
>
>
> DISCRETE DIFFERENTIAL CALCULUS GRAPHS, TOPOLOGIES AND GAUGE THEORY.
> By Aristophanes Dimakis (Crete U.), Folkert Muller-Hoissen (Gottingen
U.).
> GOET-TP-1-94, (Received Apr
> 1994). 34pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9404112
>
>
> FINITE QUANTUM PHYSICS AND NONCOMMUTATIVE GEOMETRY.
> By A.P. Balachandran (Syracuse U.), G. Bimonte (ICTP, Trieste & INFN,
> Naples),
> E. Ercolessi (Syracuse U.), G.
> Landi (Syracuse U. & INFN, Naples & Trieste U., IFT), F. Lizzi,
> G. Sparano (INFN, Naples & Naples U., IFT), P.
> Teotonio-Sobrinho (Syracuse U.). IC-94-38, Mar 1994. 41pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9403067
>
>
> DIFFERENTIAL CALCULUS AND DISCRETE STRUCTURES.
> By Aristophanes Dimakis (Crete U.), Folkert Muller-Hoissen (Gottingen
U.).
> GOET-TP-98-93, Dec 1993. 6pp.
> To be published in the proceedings of International Symposium
> on Generalized Symmetries in Physics,
> Clausthal-Zellerfeld, Germany, 26-29 Jul 1993.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9401150
>
>
> DIFFERENTIAL CALCULUS AND GAUGE THEORY ON FINITE SETS.
> By Aristophanes Dimakis (Crete U.), Folkert Muller-Hoissen (Gottingen
U.).
> GOET-TP-33-93-REV, Nov
> 1993. 24pp. Revised version.
> Published in J.Phys.A27:3159-3178,1994.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9401149
>
>
> DIMENSIONAL REDUCTION IN QUANTUM GRAVITY.
> By G. 't Hooft (Utrecht U.). THU-93-26, (Received Oct 1993).
> 15pp. Essay dedicated to Abdus Salam.
> e-Print Archive: gr-qc/9310026
>
>
> FINITE APPROXIMATIONS TO QUANTUM PHYSICS: QUANTUM POINTS AND THEIR
> BUNDLES.
> By A.P. Balachandran, G. Bimonte, E. Ercolessi,
> P. Teotonio-Sobrinho (Syracuse U.). SU-4240-550, Oct 1993.
> 26pp.
> Published in Nucl.Phys.B418:477-493,1994.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9310015
>
>
> TOWARDS A CANONICAL FORMALISM OF FIELD THEORY ON DISCRETE SPACE-TIME.
> By Hiroshi Yamamoto, Akihisa Hayashi, Takaaki Hashimoto,
> Minoru Horibe (Fukui U.). HEPTH-9307112,
> (Received Oct 1993). 29pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9307112
>
>
> THE LANGEVIN EQUATION ON A CELL COMPLEX.
> By F. Vanderseypen (Leuven U.). KUL-TF-93-22, (Received Jul 1993).
13pp.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9307078
>
>
> STRUCTURE OF TOPOLOGICAL LATTICE FIELD THEORIES IN THREE-DIMENSIONS.
> By Stephen-wei Chung, Masafumi Fukuma, Alfred Shapere (Cornell U.,
LNS).
> CLNS-93-1200, May 1993.
> 70pp.
> Published in Int.J.Mod.Phys.A9:1305-1360,19­94.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9305080
>
>
> QUANTUM RELATIVITY.
> By D. Finkelstein, J.M. Gibbs (Georgia Tech), 1994.
> Published in Int. J. Theor. Phys. 32 (1993) 1801-1813.
>
>
> PRE-REGGE CALCULUS: TOPOLOGY THROUGH LOGIC
> By R.R. Zapatrin
> Published in Int J. Theor Phys 32, 279 (1993)
>
>
> FROM CONTINUUM TO LATTICE THEORY VIA DEFORMATION OF THE DIFFERENTIAL
> CALCULUS.
> By A. Dimakis, F. Muller-Hoissen, T. Striker (Gottingen U.),
> GOET-TP-45-92, Jul 1992. 6pp.
> Published in Phys.Lett.B300:141-144,1993.
>
>
> LATTICE TOPOLOGICAL FIELD THEORY IN TWO-DIMENSIONS.
> By M. Fukuma (Cornell U., LNS), S. Hosono (Harvard U.),
> H. Kawai (Tokyo U.). CLNS-92-1173, (Received Dec
> 1992). 33pp.
> Published in Commun.Math.Phys.161:157-176,1­994.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9212154
>
>
> TOPOLOGICAL LATTICE MODELS IN FOUR-DIMENSIONS.
> By Hirosi Ooguri (Kyoto U., RIMS). RIMS-878,
> (Received Jun 1992). 14pp. Dedicated to Huzihiro Araki and
> Noboru Nakanishi on occasion of their 60th birthdays.
> Published in Mod.Phys.Lett.A7:2799-2810,199­2.
> e-Print Archive: hep-th/9205090
>
>
> QUANTUM METRIC SPACES AS A MODEL FOR PREGEOMETRY.
> By E. Alvarez (Bern U.), J. Cespedes, E. Verdaguer (Barcelona,
Autonoma U.),
> Published in Phys. Rev. D45 (1992) 2033-2043.
>
>
> QUANTUM FIELD THEORETIC BEHAVIOR OF A DETERMINISTIC CELLULAR
AUTOMATON.
> By G. 't Hooft, K. Isler, S. Kalitzin (Utrecht U.), 1992.
> Published in Nucl. Phys. B386 (1992) 495-519.
>
>
> FUZZY PHYSICS.
> By J. Madore (Orsay, LPTHE), LPTHE-ORSAY-92-01, Jan 1992. 10pp.
> Published in Ann.Phys.219:187-198,1992.
>
>
> SPACE-TIME STRUCTURE ON QUANTUM LATTICE.
> By L.E. Szabo (Eotvos U.). 1992.
> Published in Int. J. Theor. Phys. 31 (1992) 1803-1810.
>
>
> QUANTUM MECHANICS ON A LATTICE AND Q DEFORMATIONS.
> By A. Dimakis, F. Muller-Hoissen (Gottingen U.),
> GOET-TP-46-92, Jul 1992. 14pp.
> Published in Phys.Lett.B295:242-248,1992.
>
>
> QUANTUM FIELD THEORY IN THE FRAMEWORK OF QUANTIZED BINARY
> ALTERNATIVES.
> By T. Gornitz (Starnberg, Max Planck Inst.), D. Graudenz
> (Aachen, Tech. Hochsch., ITP), C.F. von
> Weizsacker (Starnberg, Max Planck Inst.), PRINT-92-0030
> (MPI,STARNBERG), Dec 1991. 29pp.
> Published in Int.J.Theor.Phys.31:1929-1960,­1992. (Title changed in
journal)
>
>
> CONTINUUM AND DISCRETUM: UNIFIED FIELD THEORY AND ELEMENTARY
> CONSTANTS.
> By H.J. Treder (Potsdam, Astrophys. Inst.), 1992.
> Published in Found. Phys. 22 (1992) 395-420.
>
>
> A FINITARY SUBSTITUTE FOR CONTINUOUS TOPOLOGY.
> By Rafael D. Sorkin (Princeton, Inst. Advanced Study & Syracuse U.),
> IASSNS-HEP-87/39, n.d. (recd Sep 1988) 23pp.
> Published in Int.J.Theor.Phys.30:923-948,19­91.
>
>
> THE STRUCTURE OF RANDOM DISCRETE SPACE-TIME.
> By Graham Brightwell (London School of Economics), Ruth Gregory
(Fermilab),
> FERMILAB-PUB-90-141-A, Jul 1990. 10pp.
> Published in Phys.Rev.Lett.66:260-263,1991.
>
>
> A PLANCK LENGTH ATOMISTIC KINETIC MODEL OF PHYSICAL REALITY.
> By F.M. Meno (Pittsburgh U.). 1991.
> Published in Phys. Essays 4 (1991) 94-104.
>
>
> QUANTIZATION OF DISCRETE DETERMINISTIC THEORIES BY HILBERT SPACE
EXTENSION.
> By Gerard 't Hooft (Utrecht U.), THU-90/7, n.d. (recd May 1990) 13pp.
> Published in Nucl.Phys.B342:471-485,1990.
>
>
> QUANTUM NORM THEORY AND THE QUANTIZATION OF METRIC TOPOLOGY.
> By C.J. Isham, Y. Kubyshin, P. Renteln (Imperial Coll., London),
> IMPERIAL-TP/89-90/13, Jan 1990. 31pp.
> Published in Class.Quant.Grav.7:1053,1990.
>
>
> QUANTUM TOPOLOGY AND QUANTIZATION OF THE LATTICE OF TOPOLOGIES.
> By C.J. Isham (Imperial Coll., London), IMPERIAL/TP/88-89/16, May
1989.
> 33pp.
> Published in Class.Quant.Grav.6:1509,1989.
>
>
> FIRST FLASH AND SECOND VACUUM.
> By D. Finkelstein (Georgia Tech), 1989.
> Published in Int. J. Theor. Phys. 28 (1989) 1081-1098. (see
Conference
> Index).
>
>
> AN ESSAY ON DISCRETE FOUNDATIONS FOR PHYSICS.
> By H.Pierre Noyes, David McGoveran (SLAC), SLAC-PUB-4528-Rev.,
> Oct 1988. 95pp. Revised version.
> Preliminary version presented at 9th Annual Int. Mtg. of Alternative
> Natural Philosophy Assoc., Cambridge,
> England, Sep 23-28, 1987.
> Published in Phys. Essays 2:76,1989.
>
>
> QUANTUM NET DYNAMICS.
> By David Finkelstein (Georgia Tech), Print-89-0119 (GEORGIA TECH),
n.d.
> (recd Feb 1989) 11pp.
> Published in Int.J.Theor.Phys.28:441,1989.
>
>
> CONTINUUM STRINGS FROM DISCRETE FIELD THEORIES.
> By Igor Klebanov (SLAC), Leonard Susskind (Stanford U., Phys. Dept.),
> SLAC-PUB-4602, Apr 1988. 18pp.
> Published in Nucl.Phys.B309:175,1988.
>
>
> WORLD FUNCTION DYNAMICS IN GENERALIZED SPACE-TIMES.
> By Enrique Alvarez (Madrid, Autonoma U.),
> FTUAM-16/87, n.d. (recd Nov 1987) 7pp.
> Published in Phys.Lett.210B:73,1988.
>
>
> SPACE-TIME AS A CAUSAL SET.
> By Luca Bombelli, Joohan Lee, David Meyer (Syracuse U.), Rafael
Sorkin
> (Syracuse U. & Princeton, Inst. Advanced Study), IASSNS-HEP-87/23a,
n.d.
> (recd May 1987) 13pp.
> Published in Phys.Rev.Lett.59:521,1987.
>
>
> DISCRETE GRAVITY WITHOUT COORDINATES.
> By Alexander N. Jourjine (Wisconsin U., Madison),
> MAD/TH/86-9a, Aug 1986. 16pp.
> Published in Phys.Rev.D35:2983,1987.
>
>
> HYPERSPIN MANIFOLDS.
> By D. Finkelstein, S.R. Finkelstein, C. Holm (Georgia Tech), 1986.
> Published in Int. J. Theor. Phys. 24 ( 1986) 441-463.
>
>
> EVENTS AS FUNDAMENTAL ENTITIES IN PHYSICS.
> By E.C. Whipple (UC, San Diego), 1986.
> Published in Nuovo Cim. 92A ( 1986) 309-327.
>
>
> PREGEOMETRIC QUANTUM LATTICE: A GENERAL DISCUSSION.
> By M. Lehto (Nordita & Cambridge U., DAMTP), H.B. Nielsen (Bohr Inst.
&
> Nordita), M. Ninomiya (Brown U.), NORDITA-85/22, May 1985. 32pp.
Contributed
> to 23rd International Conference on High-Energy Physics held in
Berkeley,
> CA,
> 16-23 July 1986.
>
>
> ARE QUANTUM FIELDS CELLULAR AUTOMATA?
> By K. Svozil (Vienna, Tech. U. & Vienna, Tech. U.), 1986.
> Published in Phys. Lett. A119 ( 1986) 153-156.
>
>
> QUANTIZATION OF SPACE-TIME AND THE CORRESPONDING QUANTUM MECHANICS.
> By M. Banai (Budapest, CRIP), KFKI-1983-110-mc (microfiche),
> Nov 1983. 39pp. Revised version of
> KFKI-1981-48.
> Published in Found.Phys.15:1203,1985.
>
>
> QUANTIZED SPACE-TIME AND CONSEQUENCES.
> By Kh. Namsrai (Ulan Bator, Inst. Phys. Tech.), 1985.
> Published in Int. J. Theor. Phys. 24 ( 1985) 741-773.
>
>
> QUANTUM FIELD THEORY ON DISCRETE SPACE-TIME. 2.
> By Hiroshi Yamamoto (Fukui U.), Print-85-0410 (FUKUI), Apr 1985.
21pp.
> Published in Phys.Rev.D32:2659,1985.
>
>
> DIMENSIONAL PHASE TRANSITIONS COUPLING OF THE MATTER TO THE CELL
> COMPLEX.
> By Alexander N. Jourjine (Wisconsin U., Madison), MAD/TH/206, Oct
1984.
> 41pp.
> Published in Phys.Rev.D31:1443,1985.
>
>
> QUANTUM FIELD THEORY ON DISCRETE SPACE-TIME.
> By Hiroshi Yamamoto (Fukui U.), FUPD-1, Jan 1984. 18pp.
> Published in Phys.Rev.D30:1727,1984.
>
>
> DISCRETE QUANTUM MECHANICS.
> By R. Friedberg, T.D. Lee (Columbia U.), CU-TP-254, n.d. (recd Jan
1983)
> 86pp.
> Published in Nucl.Phys.B225:1,1983.
>
>
> SIMULATING PHYSICS WITH COMPUTERS
> R.P. Feynman,
> Published in Int J Theor Phys, 21, 467 (1982)
>
>
> CELLULAR VACUUM
> M. Minsky,
> Published in Int J Theor Phys 21, 537 (1982)
>
>
> ON QUANTIZED SPACE-TIME.
> By M. Ichiyanagi (Osaka U.), 1981.
> Published in Prog. Theor. Phys. 65 ( 1981) 1472-1475.
>
>
> DYNAMICS OF DISCRETE SPACE STRUCTURE.
> By I. Dadic, K. Pisk (Boskovic Inst., Zagreb), 1979.
> Published in Int.J.Theor.Phys.18 (1979) 345-358.
>
>
> SPACE-TIME CODE: PRELIMINARIES AND MOTIVATIONS.
> By G. Mccollum (Cornell U., LNS), 1978.
> Published in Found.Phys.8 (1978) 211-228.
>
>
> SPACE-TIME CODE
> D. Finkelstein
> Published in Phys Rev, 184,1261 (1969)
>
>
> GENERAL RELATIVITY WITHOUT COORDINATES
> T. Regge,
> Nuovo Cim 19: 558-571 (1961)
>
>
> QUANTISED SPACE-TIME
> H.S. Snyder
> Published in Phys Rev 71 38 (1947)
>
>
> THE ROLES OF DISCRETE AND CONTINUOUS THEORIES IN PHYSICS
> A. Ruark
> Published in Phys Rev 37 315 (1931)

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