Re: Simple question about a laser pushing a proton.

In sci.physics, T Wake
<taswakeAt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote
on Tue, 21 Feb 2006 00:01:41 -0000
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"Spaceman" <Realspace@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"T Wake" <taswakeAt@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Ok, you think protons can go faster than light then?

since the photons are limited to c.

How does the laser beam (made up of photons) go faster than c then? Can
you explain it to a dullard like myself please?

the laser itself does not,
the reflection of it does.

So the photons that make up the laser beam are travelling faster than light.

Tomorrow I will get in touch with one of my friends who works in a high
energy lab and ask him to measure how fast he can accelerate the photons in
a laser beam using mirrors.

Hopefully I will have an answer for you by the end of the week.

An interesting experiment, and hopefully substantive. The best
I can think of is spinning a disc -- and Eric Gisse apparently
has performed such -- but with a knurled edge, and measuring the
velocity and/or wavelength of the resulting reflected light.

This is not quite Fizeau; Fizeau's apparatus chopped the beam.
What I'm suggested would also chop the beam but it would
also reflect it. The main problem is that the spinning disc
will shoot the light all over the place.

AIUI, Eric's experiments involved hitting a mirrored
surface of the reflective disc, rather than the edge.
This should also work, though it's not quite as obvious
that there should be a speed difference, given c'=c+v
theory; it would also not "spray" and may be easier to
handle. One might even be able to measure the deflection
of the beam after it travels through a long tube, as well
as the speed. as the disc spins up; the rotating disc
should impart a transverse component, in c'=c+v theory.

I suspect a 10000 RPM 6" diameter unit is easily possible
-- 10000 RPM 5 1/4" disk drives are already out in the
field, though not with knurled edges -- and probably
could go 10 times faster than that, but I'd have to look
regarding the strength of a platter. Of course going too
fast the platter will fall apart, so there is a limit;
what that limit is, I for one don't know.

10000 RPM 6" diameter = almost 80 m/s, so it's not that
fast, but if one then redirects the resulting beam down
a tube 1 km in length the resulting delta would be just
less than .9 picosecond. Of course the faster the
disk rotates or the larger the disk or the longer the tube,
the more the delta.

The angular deflection should be on the order of
80/(3*10^-8) = .267 microradians.

There is, however, another complication. A laser is at a
temperature K. This temperature is greater than absolute
zero. Ergo, the molecules in the laser unit are going
to be moving around. For room temperature it's a few
hundred meters per second. For SR this is not really a
problem (the spectral lines fuzz out a bit but that's it);
for c'=c+v theory the precision of certain astronomical
observations could be ruined as the slow quanta are
overtaken by the fast ones.


The laser reflection will be able to move FTL

So the photons the laser is generating will move faster than c? Is that
correct?

No,
the photons are only moving at c to the reflection points.

Then what?

Obviously, Spaceman is thinking that the reflection points, while moving
at v, will cause the resulting photons hitting them to move at
c+2v.

(Not that this is true, of course.)


and if that reflection can push a proton,
the proton would "ride" the reflection at FTL.

Ok. How do we get the photons in the laser to go FTL in the first place?

Are you dense?

Apparently.

Try reading ..and actually thinking about what you read
instead of thinking about what you want to think
about during the reading.

Ok, what am I missing.

Is this what you are saying:

Laser fires beam of photons (moving at c) at mirror

Mirror reflects photons (at speed >c) which then push proton

Proton goes > c


What did I get wrong?

The main problem is aiming the photon; a rotating mirror unit
will tend to "spray". I'm not sure if a vibrating mirror has
ever been tried but that's the best I can think of. :-)


sheesh!


Oh well. I am sorry. I hadnt realised you were using special lasers which
dont fire photons.

I am not
and you are proving you either don't actually read

Ok. What did I get wrong?

or are just an ignorant relativist.


You are confused about speed and energy. When you eat a chocolate bar,
how fast is that energy traveling to give you the energy to walk?

I am not confused about energy at all,
It is yu that can not grasp that the speed of
the energy source itself matters.

Well, this is not really true.




--
#191, ewill3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
It's still legal to go .sigless.
.

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