Re: The train and the light inside.


PD wrote:
tomgee wrote:
PD wrote:
tomgee wrote:
PD wrote:
tomgee wrote:
Spaceman wrote:
"Igor" <thoovler@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1140550474.168851.260960@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
And when did you do your experiment that proved that they don't measure
the same speed c?
SNIP

It is not "apparent" that they are not at CV wrt each other. In fact,
it
would look as if they are, since they are moving abreast of each
other and in the same direction (assuming you meant to say that).
Let's say they are moving at CV as they accelerate,

"Moving at CV" with respect to what? The road? Wouldn't that be
incompatible with the fact that they are accelerating?

With Each Other, PD! That's what you said and I said, "at CV wrt each
other". Please try to stay focused, will you?

"Moving at CV" with respect to each other? That's what I said. They are
not moving *relative* to each other, but that does not mean they are
moving at CV with respect to the road (or anything else). Please reread
what I said and pay attention.

and in such a
case, it can be said that they are at "relative motion" wrt each other.

They cannot be at CV with just "constant relative motion" unless they
are also moving in the same direction as well as moving at the same
speed at any given moment. The difference between CV and your
"constant relative motion" is that CV requires not only that the speed
be identical but that the direction be identical as well.

TomGee, please don't be an idiot. If they are keeping abreast of each
other, of course they are moving in the same direction.

Then why do you ask "Moving at CV with respect to what", fool?"

IOWs, you
can
have "constant relative motion" without having CV if the two cars are
moving opposite each other at the exact same speed.

Example 2: I'm sitting on a train headed east at 97 mph. While I'm
sitting, both the train and I have the same constant speed relative to
the earth (97 mph) and our relative speed is zero.

Yes, you do, but you and the train are not at CV wrt to the earth.

What do you call a *constant* 97 mph while I sit there???

What the hell do you think CV means?

CV is a vector and as such requires the same speed and direction
between two or more objects. Since the train is moving wrt Earth, you
and it cannot be at CV wrt each other.

You
and the train are at CV wrt each other. It can be said that you, the
train, and the earth are at CV wrt the direction East, but not wrt the
total state of motion of the earth. You are not taking into
consideration
the fact that the earth is also moving through space in a direction
other
than the one in which it rotates.

I said 97 mph *with respect to the earth*. What the earth is doing is
not relevant to that.

Yes, it is indeed. That is what you don't understand. So long as you
are in a train that is at the station loading passengers, you, the
train, and the earth are at CV wrt each other because you and the train
are moving at the same speed as the earth through space. When the
train begins to move away, you are still at CV wrt to it but neither
you or it are at CV wrt the earth because you and the train are moving
at different speeds than the earth. The earth did not change speed,
only you and the train changed speeds and so you are no longer at CV
wrt the earth. You both are now moving at speeds additional to that of
the earth's speed.

Even if the train is moving along the plane of its solar orbit, it (and you in it) is moving
additional to the motion of the earth because it must do so in order to move from one
place to another.

Now I get up because I have to pee, and I walk toward the restroom at the back of
the train. Now the train is moving 97 mph with respect to the earth, and I'm
moving 94 mph with respect to the track. Is it still your position that in my getting up
and starting to walk at 3 mph, I'm traveling faster than the train?

Yes. Your motion on the train is the same as the train's motion on the

track. In order for to be able to move from your seat on the train,
you
must move faster than the earth and the train.

The train is going 97 mph with respect to the track, and I'm going 94
mph with respect to the track. How is 94 mph faster than 97 mph?

Do you have ANY idea what you're talking about?

Yes, but apparently I'm not getting through to you. While sitting in a
train that is taking on passengers, you and the train are at CV wrt the
earth because as the planet moves about the cosmos you're riding it
just like you're riding the train when it begins to move away from the
station. When the train starts off, you are moving at the same speed
as the train and also going in the same direction as the train. You
are still at CV with the train as you were sitting in it at the station
when it was stationary. But once the trains moves off, it is not
longer moving at the same speed as the earth is moving through space.
In order for the train to go somewhere else away from the station, it
must continue to move along with the earth through space as before, but
now it must also move faster than it was moving when it was stationary.
Why? Because if it does not increase its speed it cannot move away.
As it moves away, it increases its speed to where it is the same as the
speed of the earth through space but in addition it has the speed it
did not have when it was still at the station.

One more time: You are in a train stationary at the station. The
earth is moving through space at say, 30000mph, and so you and the
train are also moving at that very same speed as you sit still upon the
earth. You and everything else on the surface of the earth that is
stationary are at CV wrt the earth because you are all moving through
space at the same speed and in the same direction as the earth. If and
when anything stationary moves upon the surface of the earth at, say,
30 mph, it is no longer at CV because it is no longer moving at the
same speed as the earth, but it is now moving at 30 mph faster than the
30000 mph it was moving when it was at CV wrt the earth. Now, it is
moving at 30030 mph (if my math is correct).

In order to move about the planet, one must increase their speed from
the speed at which the planet is traveling through space. Wait til you
hear my ideas about AE's silly notion of the spaceship that appears to
us to be sitting on its platform while it is traveling along in curved
space-time!! I don't recommend you get into that until you master CV.

During the time you went off and returned, time for you passed slightly
slower than it did for your TV and the Earth. Meaning that you aged
slightly less than did your TV or the planet. I know it's hard for you
to believe all this, but it's based on SR and the second law of
thermodynamics.

If it so happens that the train is
traveling west, then I think I can argue that the train is traveling
*slower* than the fella on the tracks. Do you see why?

Assuming the experiment declared a certain direction in which the train
is moving, the experiment did not depend on the direction at all since
the two observers were not said to be at CV wrt each other. Direction,
then, does not enter into the experiment, only the fact that one
observer is moving faster than the other.

So, regardless whether I walk to the front of the train or toward the
back of the train (see example 2 above), I'm still traveling faster
than the train.

Yes.

I see. So both 94 mph and 100 mph are both faster than the train's 97
mph with respect to the track.

That's not what I said. They are faster than the earth's motions
through space.

TomGee, seriously: some of the most amazing things come out of your
fingers when you attempt to think.

Yes, they do. Amazing and astounding, but too difficult to understand
for some, even though I explain in plain English and No Math. Stick
with me, though, and hopefully one day you'll awake in the middle of
the night and shout, "Now I know what that s.o.b.s been talking about
all this time!!"

I just wish others would respond with questions of their own that would
make it easier for all to get the gist of all that assert. My ideas
have allowed me to be content in my old age, and they can help others
be at peace with their inquiring minds.

.

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