Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:32:39 +0100, Ben Newsam
<ben.newsam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:53:27 -0700, Lester Zick
<dontbother@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:50:10 +0100, Ben Newsam
<ben.newsam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
If retrograde orbits will eventually fall into the sun, you at least
have to provide some kind of evidence for the idea.

I do? You asked for my opinion on the subject of the consequences of
retrograde orbits and I gave it. So now I'm supposed to answer to you?

If you don't provide some sort of reasoning for such claims, then
don't be surprised if people think they are bizarre or laughable.

Aw poor baby. You asked; I answered. But instead of asking further
relevant questions you demand I provide evidence to your satisfaction.
Well lemme splain something to you, sport. Your satisfaction will
never be forthcoming regardless of what I provide. That goes without
saying. So I'm a little disinclined to go chasing rainbows on threats
of withdrawals of affection from you.

Surely, having
been given an example of a retrgrade orbit, you should be able to show
or predict when it *will* fall into the sun.

I predict it will fall into the sun. Period. You asked for my opinion
on retrograde orbits; that's it. As to when it will fall into the sun
the answer is sometime.

You actually said "soon", but I don't believe you can provide a single
example of a retrograde orbit that *has* decayed and fallen into the
sun.

Soon, moon, June. I told you what I meant by soon. If you'll volunteer
to go into the Sun to verify the examples I'll certainly do my best.

As far as I am concerned,
*any* existing examples of retrograde orbits that can not be shown to
be headed for the sun are counter arguments to your proposal.

The problem is that contrary to your rather childish expectations
examples are not arguments if they don't refute what I say.

Indeed. But, I am asking for just *one* example from you to back up
your claim.

And I'm saying that my opinion remains whether or not I do and no
example you give of objects in retrograde orbit has any bearing on the
validity of that opinion and why should anyone give examples when
opinions and not examples were asked for and you can't provide any
contrary examples of objects in retrograde orbits which will not fall
into the sun. Jesus are you stupid or what?

I say that
"objects in retrograde orbit will fall into the sun" and your example
of Halley's comet in retrograde orbit doesn't support or refute that
claim because your implied clause "hasn't fallen into the sun" doesn't
contradict my explicit claim "will fall into the sun".You're an idiot.

Aha. The gratuitous ad hominem

What gratuitous ad hominem? Ad hominem it may have been but gratuitous
it certainly wasn't. It was an accurate characterization of your
puerile attempts at argument by example.

leads me to suspect you have been
caught out and don't want to admit it.

My opinion certainly wasn't "caught out'; it was forthrightly and
plainly stated in response to your question.

If you claim that something
"will" happen just so and off the top of your head, you could claim
anything else you like that is equally or even more ridiculous. And
equally irrefutable.

So what? You asked a question and I answered. Now you're complaining
your question was foolish.I don't necessarily agree mostly because you
appear far more foolish than your question. Now if you hold a contrary
opinion I suggest you provide examples of objects in retrograde orbit
which will not fall into the Sun to support your equally problematic
position so we can all see exactly how righteous you are in support of
your contentions when you claim I'm not.

In fact,
I doubt if you can show a single example of any object with a
retrograde orbit that *has* fallen into the sun because of its motion
in that direction.

That would be a little difficult without actually going into the sun.
Next time you're there we'll talk.

I won't play silly games along these lines.

Coulda fooled me because it looks like you're doing nothing but
playing silly games along these lines. Your main complaint seems to be
you're just not very good at it.

So, if it hasn't happened, and can't be shown to
happen in the future, then as far as I am concerned, it doesn't
happen.

I daresay a lot of things don't happen as far as you're concerned.

So, please show me how objects with retrograde orbits have to fall
into the sun. You may as well claim that they will fly off into space,
which IMO is equally likely.

Or you could just show us why objects in retrograde orbit won't fall
into the sun replete with examples. You asked for a straightforward
opinion and you got it. If you don't like my opinion all you need to
invalidate it is to demonstrate the necessary validity of your own
contrary opinion in mechanical terms. Or perhaps as is more likely
you'll prefer to go back to playing silly word games instead..

While we're at it, what is your understanding anyway of the term
"retrograde orbit"? Because it is entirely possible that your
understanding is completely wrong. For instance, do you think that if
I drop something, an apple for instance, it's motion towards the earth
is "retrograde"? Because if you do, then all bets are off as far as
your statements or predictions are concerned.

No, no. That only concerned the one idea of heliocentric deceleration.
I understand the idea of a retrograde orbit in conventional terms as
one orbiting the Sun in a direction opposed to the Sun's rotation.

Ecliptic orbits
can be any conic section. Non retrograde orbital inclinations will
eventually be drawn into the ecliptic plane.

Neptune and Pluto clearly have other ideas.

Oh I rather imagine that'll change soon enough.

Again, PYP.

And again your instancing non ecliptic orbital inclinations has
nothing to do with what I said. If you want to argue against what I
said you need arguments not examples.

No. Excuse me, but *you* need to provide arguments and/or examples,
not me.

How do you figure, ace? You asked for my opinion on the subject of non
ecliptical orbits and I gave it. Why do you think I owe you anything?

Well, I guess so. But then, if you make weird claims like that at
random, people will simply ignore you.

Doesn't seem to work very well with you now does it? I can't help it
if you ask stupid questions and then call the resulting answer weird
especially when you're too lazy or stupid to prove the contrary case
true which supposedly would not be weird because it's conventional and
all conventional people are not weird because they're unoriginal and
all think alike opinions to the contrary notwithstanding.

Do you have any numbers that show that the orbits of Neptune
and Pluto are changing towards the ecliptic? No, I thought not, In any
case it won't be happening "soon" as you claim.

Yeah well that all depends on what I mean by "soon", sport. That could
mean anything in the next umpteen godzillion years by inter gallactic
standards.

Your use of language appears to be as loose and vague as your
astronomical predictions.

No looser or vaguer than yours when you call my opinions weird but are
too lazy or stupid to prove my opinion wrong by proving your contrary
opinion right by the same method you demand I prove mine right.

Lester Zick
~v~~
.

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