Re: Venturi question


<matt271829-news@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1158151879.979616.41490@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| RP wrote:
| > Sorcerer wrote:
| > > <matt271829-news@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
| > > news:1158097941.649861.101980@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > > | Sorcerer wrote:
| > > | > <matt271829-news@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
| > > | > news:1158004973.423968.104990@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > > | > | Hi
| > > | > |
| > > | > | It seems to be a well-established fact that the temperature
drops
| > > | > | inside a venturi tube (e.g. causing icing in carburettors). The
only
| > > | > | explanation I've been able to find is that "the expansion of
fluid as
| > > | > | it passes the throat causes a temperature decrease". I'm not
sure what
| > > | > | "passes" means here. The pressure inside the throat is lower
than the
| > > | > | pressure either side, right?
| > > | >
| > > | > No, not right. A venturi is narrower in the middle.
| > > | > The gas is squeezed down, that RAISES its pressure and
temperature,
| > > | > it cools by losing heat to the tube, but then it cools again as it
| > > leaves
| > > | > the exit upon expansion.
| > > |
| > > | The standard explanations (e.g.
| > > | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_tube) say that pressure is
lower
| > > | in the narrow part of the tube.
| > >
| > > "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please
search for
| > > Venturi tube) in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or
spellings."
| > >
| > > Wackypedia is a disaster, any idiot can write it, and they do.
| > >
| > > Let's put it this way... As a piston falls in the engine, the lowest
| > > pressure is in the manifold, the highest is atmospheric in the air
filter.
| > >
| > > Venturi tubes are also used to measure water flow and the introduction
| > > of chlorine gas to kill bacteria; the lowest pressure is in the
reservoir,
| > > the highest at the faucet. Likewise air pressure is lowest at the top
of the
| > > atmosphere.
| > >
| > > Thus in the case of a carburettor the flow is from high pressure to
low,
| > > but in the water example it is from low pressure to high. If you say
| > > the pressure is lower in the narrow part of the tube, lower than what,
| > > inlet or exhaust?
| > >
| > > | If that really means that the density
| > > | of the gas (in terms of molecules per litre, say) is lower in the
| > > | narrow part, then the gas would be expanding as it *entered* the
narrow
| > > | part, and compressing as it *exited* the narrow part. This is what I
| > > | can't get my head round. Is it really true that the gas is being
| > > | compressed as it *exits* the narrow part??
| > >
| > > The gas is decompressed as it leaves. If you let the air out of a
truck
| > > tyre the valve will frost up. The pressure in the valve stem is
| > > slightly lower than the pressure in the tyre (100 PSI), but is much
higher
| > > than atmospheric (15 PSI).
| > > So if you have a restriction the gas or water squeezed down at
| > > the start of the tube and then drops pressure as it leaves, but
| > > in the water example the exit pressure is greater than the entry
| > > pressure.
| > > In numbers, 100 ft head of water at the faucet, 0 feet head at the
| > > reservoir which is on a hill.
| > > Faucet closed :
| > > At 50 feet, there is 50 feet head of water on each side the venturi.
| > > Faucet open:
| > > Water flows, there is then 50 feet head on the inlet side of the
| > > venturi, 49 feet head on the other, and 99 at the faucet.
| > >
| > > In other words the faucet is supporting the weight of 99%
| > > of the water, the venturi 1%.
| > >
| > > Look up Boyle's Law and Charles's Law.
| > > Androcles
| >
| >
| > I think the question is "where did the heat go?" So far we've
| > outlined three distinct cooling processes between us. Actually four,
| > because you and tadchem mentioned the vapor compression cycle
| > (refrigerator). This cooling cycle is not however due, or even remotely
| > related to the venturi effect. This would fall under the category of
| > plain old evaporative cooling instead. On the other hand evaporative
| > cooling can occur at the venturi outlet providing that the mixture
| > exiting the outlet contains liquid in some form. But this cooling
| > effect wouldn't be related to the venturi effect, it would only be
| > incidental.
| >
| > The process that you outlined isn't adiabatic. It requires a heat
| > sink. This was dubbed the "gas cycle" when it was first invented. The
| > restricted portion of the venturi would have to be maintained at a
| > temperature lower than the gas within it. If no heat sink is present,
| > then the cooling effect will only occur temporarily, i.e. until the
| > venturi and gas temps equalize.
| >
| > The adiabatic process that tadchem outlined causes cooling of the
| > entire volume of compressed gas, not just the gas at the outlet. This
| > is evident in his example of the aerosol can. It is the entire can that
| > cools rather than just the nozzle. The throttling effect (Joule-Thomson
| > process) that I mentioned causes a temperature drop that is
| > proportional to the drop in pressure, or in other words a cooling of
| > the gas exiting any orifice, be it a venturi or otherwise. Though there
| > would be some cooling within the connecting tubing and in the venturi,
| > it would be a much smaller effect than that occurring at the outlet
| > where the pressure drop is greatest. Evaporative cooling would occur
| > in similar fashion, since the throttling effect is essentially just a
| > further evaporation of the gas, so to speak. In the throttling effect,
| > even though the gas is already in vapor form, it still has internal
| > "cohesive" PE, and depending upon conditions, that PE may be either net
| > positive or net negative. The gas may cool down, or it may heat up,
| > depending upon its initial density and temperature, and of course it's
| > composition. This is one of the reasons that real gases aren't ideal.
| >
| > So take your pick, or mix and match.
| >
| > Matt, can you describe in more detail the actual system that you have
| > in mind? I'm no expert on this subject, but I might be able to describe
| > the process in terms other than this or that "effect". Basically, any
| > time a gas cools, it's because it has lost heat energy. That's a
| > bit of a tautology, but at least it tells us that the heat had to go
| > somewhere. I *think* your question is two-fold: How did the heat
| > transfer occur, and where did the heat go. Based upon your questions
| > so far, I'm really not sure what you're looking for other than a
| > better understanding.
| >
| > But now that you've brought the subject up, I'd like to know a little
| > more about it too. Maybe someone else can help us all out.
| >
| > Richard Perry
|
| Thanks for your reply Richard. The question just arose in conversation
| - the phenomenon of Carburetor icing was brought up, and it was
| suggested that the cooling was due to the venturi effect, but we
| weren't sure exactly how it happened. I've just come across another
| Wikipedia article actually -
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor_icing - which says that "Carb
| icing occurs when there is humid air, and the temperature drop in the
| venturi causes the water vapour to freeze." Unfortunately neither this
| nor any other reference I've found explains why this temperature drop
| should occur. That's really all I was interested in understanding.
|
| As you say, various different potential cooling processes have been
| mentioned. If expansion of the gas is in some way involved then I'm not
| at all sure where this is supposed to occur - you say that the pressure
| drop is greatest "at the outlet", but as I understand it the pressure
| is lowest in the narrowest part of the tube, which seems to imply that
| "expansion" would occur as the gas passes from the inlet into the
| narrow part. Is that wrong?
|
| Hmmmm!
Yes, it is wrong. You snipped the explanation so I'm not repeating it.
Androcles.


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Venturi question
    ... |> | it passes the throat causes a temperature decrease". ... A venturi is narrower in the middle. ... |> The gas is squeezed down, that RAISES its pressure and temperature, ... of chlorine gas to kill bacteria; the lowest pressure is in the reservoir, ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Venturi question
    ... |> | it passes the throat causes a temperature decrease". ... A venturi is narrower in the middle. ... |> The gas is squeezed down, that RAISES its pressure and temperature, ... of chlorine gas to kill bacteria; the lowest pressure is in the reservoir, ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Venturi question
    ... |> | it passes the throat causes a temperature decrease". ... A venturi is narrower in the middle. ... |> The gas is squeezed down, that RAISES its pressure and temperature, ... of chlorine gas to kill bacteria; the lowest pressure is in the reservoir, ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Venturi question
    ... A venturi is narrower in the middle. ... |> The gas is squeezed down, that RAISES its pressure and temperature, ... of chlorine gas to kill bacteria; the lowest pressure is in the reservoir, ... This cooling cycle is not however due, ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Venturi question
    ... |> pressure is in the manifold, the highest is atmospheric in the air ... Is it really true that the gas is being ... This cooling cycle is not however due, ... It requires a heat ...
    (sci.physics)
Loading