Re: 2nd law of thermodynamics in question

Hi Richard,

Richard Herring wrote:
In message <1164038906.592716.280940@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Paul
<softwarelabus@xxxxxxxxx> writes
Richard Herring wrote:
In message <1163784222.354726.83330@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Paul
<softwarelabus@xxxxxxxxx> writes
Hi Richard,


Richard Herring wrote:
In message <1163776334.395266.157840@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Paul
<softwarelabus@xxxxxxxxx> writes

[...]

Now, has it _ever_ occurred to you that a stabilized AC signal without
a pulse contains no _directional pulses_ and such a signal merely
contains current that changes directions every cycle (oscillates)???
LOL, so if you want to know the direction of current then you don't
even need to swap the probe connector.

Strawman.

For the hard of thinking, that means "the preceding is an example of the
strawman fallacy."

I don't want to know the direction of current. I want to know the
direction of energy flow.
I can easily tell you which
direction the electrons are flowing.

I don't want to know the direction the electrons are flowing. I want to
know the direction of energy flow.

You really don't understand, do you. If your AC signal source is
unchanging from peak to peak then you simply have steady oscillating
current.

Which, in combination with a steady oscillating potential difference,
may be associated with:

(a) a flow of energy from left to right, or
(b) a flow of energy from right to left, or (for completeness)
(c) some combination of the above, such as a standing wave.

You claimed to be able to distinguish these. Here you are:

=====================================================

So if I have a signal generator connected to a 50 ohm resistor via a
coaxial cable, with a T-connector in the middle, and I let you use your
oscilloscope to measure the voltage across it, do you think you can tell
me which way the energy is travelling?

Yes, I can tell you which way the energy is traveling?
=====================================================

Yes, and my claim is correct, LOL, as you just clarified.

No mention there that you can't do it with a "steady oscillating
current".

Richard, again, there are two types of energy flow. 1. Current. 2. A
pulse. What is your problem?

Oh, that's easy. The problem is in seeing your response as anything but
a non-sequitur.


OK, OK, OK, I'm tired of fighting! Let's please try to focus our
discussion.




Geez! How many more ways can you twist your ignorance to save
face, LOL.

If that weren't so sad if would be funny.


[...]

You can measure it before it existed, as far as I'm concerned.
You still
won't be able to determine the direction of energy flow from a
one-point
voltage measurement.

We already went over this. We clarified that we are talking about a
common scope probe with _*TWO*_ connectors. You and I both know what a
common voltage scope probe with two connectors is. If you are going to
measure the voltage on or near the T-connector then you'll obviously
need to touch the electrical wire at two locations because the probe
has two connectors.

That's right. The centre pin of the T-connector, and its shield. If I
swivel the T and everything connected to it through 180 degrees, will
there be any difference?

Come on, I really don't have time for this.

You mean you're evading giving a simple "yes" or "no" to the question
above?

Are you blind pal? I clearly stated "yes" from the start.

Mind reading again? That's the first time I've asked that question. You
referred to exchanging the conductors. I'm asking about swivelling the
T-connector, leaving the scope probe connected to it. You didn't answer
that question.

The goal as I understand is an attempt to measure the current as close
to the T-connector. I am referring to a two-connector common voltage
probe-- key word is "common." One of the scopes connectors is next to
the T-connector. The other scope connector is some distance away from
the T-connector, depending upon the scopes performance. As you know,
there must be two pinholes in coaxial cable for measurement purposes,
unfortunately. What I mean by swapping the voltage probe connectors is
literally placing the + lead where the ground lead was located, and
then placing the ground lead where the + lead was located.
Understandably, if the ground lead has precisely the same
characteristics as the + lead then such a technique fails. Fortunately
ground leads are connected to a common ground, thereby connected to an
appreciable amount of grounding system. Traversing pulses are sensitive
to changes in electrical area. Consider a pulse traversing along a thin
wire. At such a point the pulse encounters two wires. The energy
contained in the pulse splits traversing along both wires. Essentially
such dispersion is what happens when the pulse encounters ground.
Relatively speaking, such an observed signal is distinct when compared
to repeating the pulse experiment and reversing the scope probe
connector leads.

Understandably such a technique is perhaps not the beautiful textbook
example you were expecting. You would perhaps give such a student an F
grade even though such a technique theoretically works. ;-) What
makes such a technique undesirable is the fact it requires appreciable
amount of research to calibrate such a working system.




Stop lying.

Be positive. Read for comprehension next time.

Good point about being positive! You got me.



In at attempt to cleanup this discussion I'll snip the rest since I am
hoping the above text covers the remaining questions.
[snip]



Regards,
Paul

.

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