Re: 2nd law of thermodynamics in question

In sci.physics, jimp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<jimp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote
on Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:35:02 GMT
<t8bm34-h57.ln1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
Paul <softwarelabus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Eric Gisse wrote:
Paul wrote:
Eric Gisse wrote:
Paul wrote:

[...]

So how exactly is the 2nd law of thermodynamics in question at this
point?


That would depend upon your definition of the 2nd law of
thermodynamics. What if an isolated device consisted of two parts, and
part #1 moves energy (taken from vibrating atoms in ambient
temperature) down an electrical wire by means of electric current to
part #2? That presumes such an isolated device contains no batteries,
gasoline, etc. IOW, the device simply converts the energy contained in
vibrating atoms (say pure carbon) into electricity, moves the energy to
part #2.

If such a device violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics is no longer of
any concern to me. What is important is that such a device is a form of
so-called "free energy" in that the device offers electrical energy 24
hours per day, 365 days per year, day or night. True, such a device
presently offers very little power, but all practical and great
inventions began with a concept.

Since people have tried and failed time after time to build such a
device, you will have to do a little better than that. Start by
building such a device. Nobody will care until you actually build it.

You should also spend some time learning thermodynamics first.


Thanks for the civilized reply. I see things differently.

The term for that is psychosis.

Best argued somewhere else, methinks. :-)


It's true
words are cheap compared to action. I know my history and what I am
capable of. So perhaps you people do not see it, but I see as clear as
day laws of limitation such as the 2nd law are faulty. I know for fact
that a resistor will generate so-called photons when connected to an
LED. There is no upper crest to such noise and every so often the
noise will top the LED's forward voltage. Thus *every so often* the LED
will generate a so-called photon.

Regards,
Paul

"...no upper crest...", "...so-called photon."??

Thermally generated electricity lighting a LED; what a concept!

And here the rest of the world believes that only mechanically or
chemically generated electricity will light a LED.


I think most electrical energy uses a thermal intermediary, namely
a steam turbine. (The exceptions include hydroelectricity and tidal
electricity, where water simply drives the turbine directly, solar
power, which doesn't have a turbine, and wind power, where air drives
the generator.) So in a way thermally-generated electricity lights
most artificial things. :-) The natural things mostly use chemical
(e.g., the lightning bug and various fish in the deep).

As for resistors generating photons -- all items generate photons (in
the far infrared range, for the most part) simply because they're warmer
than absolute zero. Resistors can warm up -- hence their ratings --
and generate more photons of a higher frequency.

Of course LEDs generate lots of photons that we can actually see.

I would also wonder about a generator. Basically, a generator spins
around magnets around a coil and the coil develops a voltage. Taken in
isolation, that coil behaves as though by magic: it can drive a light
bulb (or an LED-resistor combination), a house, a small town, a large
city, depending on device size and number.

But there's a reciprocity involved, of course; the current
flowing through the coil slows down the magnets to a stop
(if one has a flywheel, a generator, a voltmeter, a switch,
and a light bulb, one might be able to demonstrate this);
therefore a continued torque is required, and supplying
that torque will require energy, either from falling
water, heated steam expanding, or moving air. In fact,
regenerative braking is essentially a generator, taking
advantage of this effect to reclaim a few lost joules
(I don't know how many; probably a few tens of thousands)
of the about 900,000 J needed to get a two-metric tonne car
moving from 0 to 67 mph (30 m/s) by recharging the batteries.

As for how LEDs generate light: that's fairly simple if
one understands basic semiconductor theory. The exact
mechanism isn't quite clear to me but from a very basic
perspective electrons fall into holes (gaps in the crystal
structure that behave a bit like free positrons might) and
the energy delta results in a bit of light -- a photon.
Presumably, a silicon junction will do exactly the same
thing, except that because the energy bands are different
the photons are different, probably in the infrared where
they're not as useful as LEDs, at least not to the unaided
eye; an infrared detector should pick them up, though.

There was a video of a device some years back that was
the size of a large filecabinet or bookcase -- round,
festooned with incandescent lights, and purportedly
generating "free energy". I for one don't believe it.
Nowadays such a device might be festooned with blue LEDs.
Still doesn't disprove thermodynamics.

--
#191, ewill3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Linux. Because it's there and it works.
Windows. It's there, but does it work?

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