Re: Bell and non-Bell spookiness

The Thing wrote:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:39:51 -0800, Edward Green wrote:

I'm uncertain what objection you are making, but I conjecture it's
something like this:

(a) I am conjecturing a model of quantum randomness wherein the outcome
of a particular measurement is distributed as F(psi,X); psi is a
complete description of the system state, X is a random variable
describing the environment, and F is a deterministic function yielding
the outcome for a particular psi,X.

(b) such a model implicitly depends on or describes the result of an
interaction between the system and the random environment, but...

(c) the overall spin state is being measured non-destructively,
therefore the system is not interacting with its environment


I think it is c) the state of the ensemble is unchanged and
therefore in what sense can we claim the individual members of
the ensemble have been changed?

I was in fact speculating (a), (b) and (c) were parts of your single
objection, not offering three different versions.

We are ... as is absolutely typical of these discussions, already
diverged on orthogonal roads. However, if you will not come with me
down my road to see the view, I'll backtrack and check out yours,
though naturally I think we should avoid this detour. ;-)

Certainly our knowledge of
the system is now different (actually this is only true if
the particles are distinguishable) but who is to say the
individual members of the ensemble were not in their
observed states before the measurement? The theory may
not allow us to ask or determine these prior states but
aren't we free to assume that they haven't been changed
by the measurement?

Again... I don't see anything actually objectionable in your thoughts,
except that they seem to be off on a different path. I told a story,
but I didn't communicate, which is why I'm speculating what you are
objecting to. If I argue with features of your objection, I will
probably only reinforce your impression that I'm defending whatever it
is you heard me say.

Anyway, let's make sure I understand you. You mention "ensemble". I
don't think I used that word. Implicitly, in using the words "random
variable" I perhaps implied such a thing. Let's be clear though. We
might apply "ensemble" to a group of non interacting systems all in the
same physical system -- like ideal gas molecules. I don't see any
such ensemble here. Instead, I see an arbitrarily large collection of
identically prepared systems, considered one at a time. We measure
(on both arms). We stop. We record. That outcome is associated with
one member of the ensemble. We repeat using "identical preparation".
That's associated with a second member. And so forth. The members of
the ensemble represent completely physically independent trials or runs
-- even in qm.

Are we in agreement so far?

.

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