Re: If Mormons don't believe that 173-year-old people walk the Earth, what do they make of this?
- From: "Jong Kim" <rhl71@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:58:07 -0800
"RetroProphet" <RetroProphet_member@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:el32c902m9f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://science.nasa.gov/NEWHOME/headlines/ast12oct99_1.htm
More reading comprehension problems, Jong.
You really need to work at that.
What is your point ib posting this 7-year old article
which merely discusses the methodology that Dr. David Noever
and Ron Koczor WOULD be employing IN THE FUTURE in analyzing
the data.
It hadn't been done at that point, and based on the
following, neither seem as enthusiastic about their results
as you seem to be...
"The last thing I heard was that he [Dr. Noever] did not
see any effects that he could clearly ascribe to the eclipse.
One European observatory along the totality line first said
that they saw some anomalous effect; however, after they
reviewed their data and prepared it for submission, they
said that what they saw were thermal effects on the pendulum."
- Ron Koczor / March 2003
"The last I heard, there had been one published result
of the study: "Precise measurement of gravity variations
during a total solar eclipse" - PHYSICAL REVIEW D, VOL. 62,
041101(R) by Qian-shen Wang, Xin-she Yang, Chuan-zhen Wu,
Hong-gang Guo, Hong-chen Liu, and Chang-chai Hua (August 15,2000).
The variations of gravity were measured with a high precision
LaCoste Romberg D gravimeters during a total solar eclipse
to investigate the effect of a solar eclipse on the
gravitational field. The observed anomaly (~7 nano-G) during
the eclipse implies that there may be a shielding property
of gravitation."
- Dr. David Noever / March 2003
31 ... as sheep dumb before the shearers, whose mouths were shut by thy
ignorance and wickedness, that their spirits were grieved almost unto death,
and their hearts within them were continually heavy within them for
beholding thy wickedness, and sloth and unbelief, O man, even as I, the
greatest and mightiest of all, even Jesus of Nazareth, and this upon the
earth by them who called themselves righteous, as the Pharisees, even as ye,
O man.
34 And it was that I, the Lord God, did cause it to be written concerning
Korihor, that the Gentiles may turn away from their false teachers, even
Meade, and anthropologists, biologists, sociologists, and all who pervert
the right way of the Lord of hosts, and who mock and point and scourge and
crucify mine Only Begotten anew and put Him unto an open shame anew, even in
this generation, saith the Lord, for do they not teach that I am not, O man?
Revelations of Jesus Christ 32:31,34
23 And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and
prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually
reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and
the power of God, and all these things?stirring them up continually to keep
them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things,
and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down
speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.
(Book of Mormon | Enos 1:23)
http://science.nasa.gov/NEWHOME/headlines/ast12oct99_1.htm
[Zhou, S. W.; Huang, B. J., "Abnormalities of the time comparisons of atomic
clocks during the solar eclipses", Nuovo Cimento C, vol. 15 C, no. 2,
Mar.-Apr. 1992, p. 133-137.] Time comparisons of two atomic clocks were made
during the solar eclipses of September 23, 1987, March 18, 1988, and July
22, 1990. Abnormal variations of the time comparisons during the solar
eclipses are confirmed, not only on a comparison clock pair, but also on
many comparison clock pairs by means of three different methods during three
solar eclipses.
91 For true science and true religion, are they not the same things, O man?
92 For I the Lord God am the author of all truth, which cometh from me.
Revelations of Jesus Christ 3:91-92
Okay, let's continue our own Twilight Zone episode from The Brothers
Karamazov, the Grand Inquisitor part and what not:
Celsus in the following, btw, this is how I understand it, is not the same
man as another Celsus who wrote that the Lord and His Apostles practiced
polygamy:
Collected Discourses, Vol.5, William Budge, March 23, 1896:
Justin Martyr, born in the year 89, or within a few years later, being a
believer in the salvation of the dead, took occasion to accuse the Jews of
mutilating a prophecy of Jeremiah, about Christ preaching salvation to the
dead.
Irenaeus, who was a bishop in the year 177, says that the Lord "descended
into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and the
remission of sins, ready for those who believe in Him," and enumerates "all
who had hopes towards Him, who proclaimed His advent and submitted it to His
dispensations," as so receiving it.
Origen, born in the year 185, had occasion to reply to one Celsus who
opposed the declared "descent into hell" of the Savior, by asking: "You
will not surely say that Christ, when he failed to persuade the living, went
down to hades to persuade those who dwell there?" Origen meets the question
without hesitation: "We say, whether it pleases him (Celsus) or no, that
His (Christ's) soul, stript of the body, did there hold converse with other
souls that were in like manner stript, that He might there convert those
that were capable of instruction or were otherwise, in ways known to Him,
fit for it."
Eusebius, the father of "Ecclesiastical History," Athanasius, Cyril of
Jerusalem, Clement, and others of the early fathers of the church, might be
quoted to the same effect, but we think sufficient testimony has been
reviewed to convince all who are not determined to remain in ignorance that
God so loved His children that Christ came to save them to the uttermost.
We must conclude that the word of God teaches the continued probation after
death, and that the Savior Himself, in fulfillment of His comprehensive
mission, taught the dead, secured the keys of death and accomplished the
deliverance of those who were bound. The general sentiment prevailing among
the successors of the Apostles confirms the truth of the present translation
of the Scriptures, as to this doctrine.
Times and Seasons, Vol.5, Pg.492-493:
THE MANNER IN WHICH THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS WERE CALUMNIATED.
We extract the following from "Milner's Church History," that our readers
may compare the slanderous imputations that were lavished upon the former
day saints, with those of the latter days.
"The extracts from Celsus, who wrote in the latter end of the second
century, preserved in Origen's work against him, are very valuable in the
light which I have stated. I shall select a few passages, partly from the
collections of others, and partly from such as I have noticed myself. The
reader must be prepared to hear bitter things. A more spiteful calumniator
hardly ever existed; but he may serve a purpose which he never intended:
When the following extracts have been seriously considered, the just
inferences to be drawn from them, concerning the nature of the gospel, and
the characters of its professors, cannot fail to present themselves to the
mind of every candid inquirer after truth.
'When they say, do not examine, and the like, in their usual manner, surely
it is incumbent on them to teach what those things are which they assert,
and whence they are derived.'
'They say; Wisdom in life is a bad thing, but folly is good.'
'Christ was privately educated, and served for hire in Egypt: he got
acquainted with miraculous arts there; he returned; and, relying on his
power of working miracles, declared himself God.'
'The Apostles were infamous men, publicans, and abandoned mariners.'
'Why should you, when an infant, be carried into Egypt, lest you should be
murdered? God should not fear being put to death.
'Ye say that God was sent to sinners; but why not to those who were free
from sin; what harm is it not to have sinned?'
'Ye encourage sinners, because ye are not able to persuade any really good
men; therefore ye open the doors to the most wicked and abandoned.'
'Some of them say, do not examine, but believe, and thy faith shall save
thee.'
With a sneer he makes the Christians say, 'These are our institutions: Let
not any man of learning come here, nor any wise man, nor any man of
prudence; for these things are reckoned evil by us. But whoever is
unlearned, ignorant, and silly, let him come without fear.' 'Thus, they own
that they can gain only the foolish, the vulgar, the stupid slaves, women
and children. They, who conversed with him when alive, and heard his voice,
and followed him as their master, when they saw him under punishment and
dying, were so far from dying with him or for him, or from being induced to
despise sufferings, that they denied that they were his disciples: but now
ye die with him.'
'He had no reason to fear any mortal now, after he had died, and, as ye say,
was a God; therefore, he should have shown himself to all, and particularly,
to him that condemned him.'
'He pursuaded only twelve abandoned sailors and publicans, and did not
persuade even all these.'
'At first, when they were but few, they agreed: But when they became a
multitude they were rent again and again; and each will have their own
factions; for they had factious spirits from the beginning.'
'They are now so split into different sects that they have only the name
left them in common.'
'All wise men are excluded from the doctrine of their faith: They call to
it only fools and men of a servile spirit.'
He frequently upbraids Christians for reckoning him, who had a mortal body,
to be God; and looking on themselves as pious on that account.
'The preachers of their divine word only attempt to persuade fools mean and
senseless persons -- slaves -- women and children. What harm can there be
in learning, or; in appearing a man of knowledge? What obstacle can this be
to the knowledge of God?'
'We see these itinerants showing readily their tricks to the vulgar, but not
approaching the assemblies of wise men; not daring to show themselves there:
but where they see boys -- a crowd of slaves, and ignorant men -- there they
thrust in themselves and puff off their doctrine.'
'You may see weavers, tailors, and fullers, illiterate and rustic men, in
their houses, but not daring to utter a word before persons of age,
experience, and respectability: it is, when they get hold of boys, and of
silly women, privately, that they recount their wonderful stories; it is
then that they teach their young disciples that they must not mind their
fathers or their tutors, but obey them: Their fathers and guardians, they
tell them, are quite ignorant and in the dark, but themselves alone have the
true wisdom. And if the children take this advice, they pronounce them
happy; and direct them to leave their fathers and tutors, and to go, with
the women and their play fellows, into the chambers of the females, or into
a tailor's or fuller's shop, that they may learn perfection.
'In other mysteries, the cryer used to say, -- Whoever has clean hands, and
a good conscience, and a good life, let him come in. But let us hear whom
they call. Whoever is a sinner, a fool, an infant, a lost wretch, the
kingdom of God will receive him. An unjust man, if he humble himself for
his crimes, God will receive him; but a just man, who has proceeded in a
course of virtue from the beginning, if he look up to him, he will not be
received.'
He compares a Christian teacher to a quack, who promises to heal the sick,
on condition that they keep from intelligent practitioners, lest his
ignorance be detected.
'Ye will hear them, though differing so widely from one another, and abusing
one another so foully, making that boast the world is crucified to me, and I
to the world.'
'The same things are better said by the Greeks, and without the imperious
denunciation of God, or the Son of God.'
'If one sort introduce one doctrine, another, another, and all join in
saying, Believe, if ye would be saved, or depart; what are they to do, who
desire really to be saved? Are they to determine by the throw of a die?
Where are they to turn themselves, or whom to believe?'
'Do you not see, that any man that will, may carry you away and crucify you
and your demon: The Son of God gives you no help.'"
[end of excerpt]
Kelsus enquired of me, Chopsocky Man, Chopsocky Man, what of the night?
I replied him, Gross darkness over mount Seir shall be penetrated by the
Lord's Light.
Yea, though the dusk turneth into the night, surely cometh the morning,
When there shall be no more "Made in China" labels for Owens Corning.
Kelsus, it is thy light, not the poet John Milton's, that is spent.
Return, come unto thy Maker lest thou perish in thy burden, therefore
repent.
Because thou doest worship exceedingly the flesh of thine intellect,
I remind thee of Pascal's Wager, that perhaps thou wilt forsake the devil's
act.
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
Pascal's Wager
First published Sat May 2, 1998; substantive revision Tue Feb 17, 2004
?Pascal's Wager? is the name given to an argument due to Blaise Pascal for
believing, or for at least taking steps to believe, in God. The name is
somewhat misleading, for in a single paragraph of his Pensées, Pascal
apparently presents at least three such arguments, each of which might be
called a ?wager? ? it is only the final of these that is traditionally
referred to as "Pascal's Wager". We find in it the extraordinary confluence
of several important strands of thought: the justification of theism;
probability theory and decision theory, used here for almost the first time
in history; pragmatism; voluntarism (the thesis that belief is a matter of
the will); and the use of the concept of infinity.
We will begin with some brief stage-setting: some historical background,
some of the basics of decision theory, and some of the exegetical problems
that the Pensées pose. Then we will follow the text to extract three main
arguments. The bulk of the literature addresses the third of these
arguments, as will the bulk of our discussion here. Some of the more
technical and scholarly aspects of our discussion will be relegated to
lengthy footnotes, to which there are links for the interested reader. All
quotations are from §233 of Pensées (1910, Trotter translation), the
?thought? whose heading is "Infinite?nothing".
1. Background
2. The Argument from Superdominance
3. The Argument from Expectation
4. The Argument from Generalized Expectations: "Pascal's Wager"
5. Objections to Pascal's Wager
Bibliography
Other Internet Resources
Related Entries
1. Background
It is important to contrast Pascal's argument with various putative ?proofs?
of the existence of God that had come before it. Anselm's ontological
argument, Aquinas' ?five ways?, Descartes' ontological and cosmological
arguments, and so on, purport to give a priori demonstrations that God
exists. Pascal is apparently unimpressed by such attempted justifications of
theism: "Endeavour ... to convince yourself, not by increase of proofs of
God..." Indeed, he concedes that "we do not know if He is ...". Pascal's
project, then, is radically different: he seeks to provide prudential
reasons for believing in God. To put it crudely, we should wager that God
exists because it is the best bet. Ryan 1994 finds precursors to this line
of reasoning in the writings of Plato, Arnobius, Lactantius, and others; we
might add Ghazali to his list ? see Palacios 1920. But what is distinctive
is Pascal's explicitly decision theoretic formulation of the reasoning. In
fact, Hacking 1975 describes the Wager as "the first well-understood
contribution to decision theory" (viii). Thus, we should pause briefly to
review some of the basics of that theory.
<snip this portion of article>
What Does It Mean to "Wager for God"?
Let us now grant Pascal that, all things considered (rationality and
morality included), you should wager for God. What exactly does this
involve?
A number of authors read Pascal as arguing that you should believe in God ?
see e.g. Quinn 1994, and Jordan 1994a. But perhaps one cannot simply believe
in God at will; and rationality cannot require the impossible. Pascal is
well aware of this objection: "[I] am so made that I cannot believe. What,
then, would you have me do?", says his imaginary interlocutor. However, he
contends that one can take steps to cultivate such belief:
You would like to attain faith, and do not know the way; you would like to
cure yourself of unbelief, and ask the remedy for it. Learn of those who
have been bound like you, and who now stake all their possessions. These are
people who know the way which you would follow, and who are cured of an ill
of which you would be cured. Follow the way by which they began; by acting
as if they believed, taking the holy water, having masses said, etc...
But to show you that this leads you there, it is this which will lessen
the passions, which are your stumbling-blocks.
We find two main pieces of advice to the non-believer here: act like a
believer, and suppress those passions that are obstacles to becoming a
believer. And these are actions that one can perform at will.
Believing in God is presumably one way to wager for God. This passage
suggests that even the non-believer can wager for God, by striving to become
a believer. Critics may question the psychology of belief formation that
Pascal presupposes, pointing out that one could strive to believe (perhaps
by following exactly Pascal's prescription), yet fail. To this, a follower
of Pascal might reply that the act of genuine striving already displays a
pureness of heart that God would fully reward; or even that genuine striving
in this case is itself a form of believing.
Pascal's Wager vies with Anselm's Ontological Argument for being the most
famous argument in the philosophy of religion. As we have seen, it is also a
great deal more besides.
Bibliography
Allais, Maurice. 1953. "Le Comportment de l'Homme Rationnel Devant la
Risque: Critique des Postulats et Axiomes de l?École Américaine",
Econometrica 21: 503-546.
<snip rest of Bibliography>
22 And if any, saith the Lord, desire a witness from me that these things
are verily true, he or she shall humble himself before me in mighty prayer
and I the Father shall visit him or her with fire and the Holy Ghost which
beareth record of the Father and his Sons which are born, not by man nor the
will of man, but abide Priests forever after the Order of Melchizedec, saith
the Lord.
Revelations of Jesus Christ 11:22
17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from
heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.
18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man
knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.
19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and
doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe,
and falleth into transgression?
20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on
the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man
according to his work.
21 And now as I said concerning faith?faith is not to have a perfect
knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are
not seen, which are true.
22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember,
that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he
desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.
23 And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but
women also. Now this is not all; little children do have words given unto
them many times, which confound the wise and the learned.
24 And now, my beloved brethren, as ye have desired to know of me what ye
shall do because ye are afflicted and cast out?now I do not desire that ye
should suppose that I mean to judge you only according to that which is
true?
25 For I do not mean that ye all of you have been compelled to humble
yourselves; for I verily believe that there are some among you who would
humble themselves, let them be in whatsoever circumstances they might.
26 Now, as I said concerning faith?that it was not a perfect knowledge?even
so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto
perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an
experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye
can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until
ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a
seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good
seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the
Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and
when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within
yourselves?It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is
good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my
understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea;
nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow,
then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and
sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen
your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that
this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you,
Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it
is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the
seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs
know that the seed is good.
34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is
perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know,
for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it
hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and
your mind doth begin to expand.
35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and
whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must
know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is
your knowledge perfect?
36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye
have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the
experiment to know if the seed was good.
37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it
with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth
fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get
root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.
38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment,
behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and
scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up
and cast it out.
39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the
fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is
barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit
thereof.
40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of
faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of
life.
41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to
grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward
to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree
springing up unto everlasting life.
42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the
word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye
shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above
all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure
above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are
filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your
diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring
forth fruit unto you.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 32:17 - 43)
Maurice Allais (About the Aether Concept, 2003 -- translated from French):
Atoms, particles, photons are but (local) singularities of the aether
which remain to be explained by differential equations.
116 And behold, this hath been done on other worlds which have been created
by the Power of the Most High and organized from the chaotic element.
Revelations of Jesus Christ 5:116
11 ¶ The burden of Dumah. He calleth to me out of Seir, Watchman, what of
the night? Watchman, what of the night?
12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will
enquire, enquire ye: return, come.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 21:11 - 12)
JJ Cale:
If life's little downs they keep coming around
Carry on, carry on
With darkness all about, you want to scream and shout
Carry on, carry on
Don't cry baby, look at where you've been
Everybody knows you just need a friend
Please, please, please, if you're down on your knees
Carry on, carry on
Your head is full of doubt, you can't figure it out
Carry on, carry on
Between the time it takes to make all those mistakes
Carry on, carry on
It don't matter what you say or do
It just seems to work out if you want it to
Let out all the slack, take it off your back
Carry on, carry on
Let me bend your ear, never shed a tear
Carry on, carry on
Carry on, carry on.
[end of song]
RP, do you want to live, or do you not? God (yes He does exist and I testify
to you of the real effects of the Holy Ghost and I have also beheld devils
with my own eyes and once audibly heard unintelligible but extremely
frightening chatter from them) wants you to choose life over death,
but He won't force you.
(I'll post just a few more times and go on a winter break from posting. I
received the Lord's permission while praying on Monday night. Last thing to
mention in this post: I don't write these things to intellectually
grandstand. It is a part of my personality to be effusive in presenting the
truth, hence the wordiness. My intent is to try to save souls, and to praise
the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ and His anointed Art Bulla and his
predecessors in the Holy Priesthood before the Usenet audience, bearing
testimony to the world as given me by the Spirit of God. Often I write harsh
things one way or the other, but many things I have written recently have
been expressly approved by the Holy Ghost, so I know I am on the right path,
especially starting with me being harsh with Nancy and Darrick. The goal is
to warn them, you and others, to pull you all out of the fire, if possible,
but you must recognize your great predicament and willingly do something
about it, which if you do, God will help you -- that is my assurance based
on personal experiences to you and others. It's also to weed out the
hypocrites. At least you are not a hypocrite, but you are a liar and in the
same sinking boat as they. Your personally hating me, at least in the past,
is not so much a problem as your continued denial of the Holy Ghost. That is
a problem with eternal consequences. Humble yourself before God and
carefully ponder and pray with real intent for understanding to be given you
by the power of the Spirit of the Lord. Amen.)
--
Jong Kim
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