Re: Ether Steam Engine ???

The Ghost In The Machine <ewill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In sci.physics, jimp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<jimp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote
on Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:15:02 GMT
<p23hc4-4o1.ln1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
The Ghost In The Machine <ewill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In sci.physics, jimp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<jimp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote
on Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:25:02 GMT
<tpsgc4-90g.ln1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
G=EMC^2 Glazier <herbertglazier@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ether boils at 96F Either is very explosive. Good engineering could
come up with a clean combustible engine. I have an idea mixed with water
gas(steam) and you would end up with lots of energy. Bert

Engines where the fuel detonates are soon called junk.


Pedant point: Diesel and Gasoline engines fall into this category. :-)

Or did you mean "detonates in the fuel tank"? :-)

It is relatively easy to keep gas under control.

It is rather hard to keep ether from detonation and pre-ignition.

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/

Also, the smog components of engine exhaust are not a factor of the
fuel. The come from using air which contains nitrogen as the oxidizer.

The higher the combustion temperature, the more smog components you
get.

I'm assuming you are talking about orinary ether as used as an engine
starting aid.


I'm not the one that brought up ether (presumably, that's
Glazier's idea), which is actually a class of organic
compounds (presumably, the "ether" he's mentioning is
diethyl-ether, C2H5OH5C2). I'll admit I know little about
engine starting aids, beyond the existence of such things
as glow plugs in diesel systems, and nitrous oxide used
as a power boost in racing engines.

Ether has been used as an engine starting aid in sub-zero weather for
about a hundred years.

Since it vaporizes so easily while gasoline doesn't at low temps, you
squirt a bit of ether into the air intake to get the engine going.

Once it starts up, the internal engine temp is sufficient to keep running
on gasoline.

Many an engine has been broken by use of too much ether.

I also know predetonation -- usually because of too low
an octane, fouled plugs, and/or mistuning an engine --
does nasty things. :-)

Two differnt things.

Pre-ignition is when the fuel starts burning before it is supposed to.

Detonation is essentially a high pressure spike after normal ignition.

I frankly don't know why an ether-steam combo would be
any better from an emissions standpoint than our current
ICE, a H2-based ICE (which isn't all that good an idea),
or a H2-powered fuel cell. (Assuming the H2 can be
gotten from an absolutely clean power source, and that's
a very big question mark; the best I can do is PV cells
and there are many issues in the manufacture thereof.)
Also, wouldn't there be a risk of the steam hydrolyzing
the ether, yielding just plain old alcohol? If so, why
not just use alcohol? Butyl alcohol is occasionally touted
as an interesting renewable power source. (I don't know
how good it is compared to biodiesel or battery power.)

The idea of injecting steam into an engine is stupid from the start.

If you inject water, it quickly turns to steam in the engine.

Water injection has been used for at least 80 years to control the
internal temperature of high performance engines, i.e. to get maximum
power out without destroying the engine from pre-ignition and detonation.

Neglecting the CO2, the "bad" emmisions from an internal compustion
engine are almost entirely oxides of nitrogen.

They come from using air as an oxidizer.

Subject oxygen and nitrogen, i.e. air, to high temperatures and
you get oxides of nitrogen.

The higher the temperature, the more nasty stuff you get; chemistry 101.

The only way to make a "clean" hydrogen engine is to use the hydrogen
in a fuel cell to power an electric engine.

In any event, good engineering includes knowing what to
avoid in the making of an engine -- unless one really
does want to make a drivable bomb, in which case one
wants the engine to work and the bomb not to go off
prematurely... :-)

Yep, and the basics of engine engineering were pretty much solved by
the end of WWII.

Almost all the advances since then have been in the area of materials
and controls to fine tune various characteristics.

--
Jim Pennino

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