Re: SPACETIME AND CONSCIOUSNESS

On Jun 11, 12:43 am, Kowstue <kows...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 11, 11:09 am, Kowstue <kows...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 11, 6:49 am, EdgarO...@xxxxxxx wrote:

On Jun 10, 6:03 pm, Kowstue <kows...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 11, 2:25 am, EdgarO...@xxxxxxx wrote:

On Jun 10, 10:14 am, Kowstue <kows...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 10, 6:37 am, EdgarO...@xxxxxxx wrote:

I invite all members to read my paper on this subject athttp://EdgarLOwen.com/stc.html. All serious comments are welcome.

Anyone interested in serious discussion and a few pertinent newsclips
on all aspects of modern science, consciousness, and how our knowledge
of the physical world arises are welcome to join my Yahoo group of the
same name.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SPACETIMEandCONSCIOUSNESS/

Best regards,
Edgar

Take note physicists hate things about consciosness and mind
because they don't obey lorentz invariance. Try to put mind into the
equations and they will being to see it. To do so, you must first
tell
whether the mind interacts with spacetime in an instant
and point in time or over extended regions. If extended. Then
it's not a Lorentz Invariance thing.

About your reasoning that spacetime moves at the speed of
c. It's just a geometrical effect in the Minkowski framework
and those folks like Tom Roberts and others who has
geometrized thinking would avoid you for it conclusing
you simply don't understand geometry and math. Anyway.
Can you justify your arguments which Brian Greene has
mentioned in passing as analogy for layman (which
you took literally).

Kows

Dear Kows,

I don't say spacetime moves at the speed of light, I show that all
physical entitites move through spacetime at the speed of light.
String theorist Brian Greene also holds this view as stated in his two
recent books. He takes them quite literally, not as an analogy, as you
will see by reading the relevant sections in his books. He has also
confirmed this in an email to me in which he says that it applies to
general relativity as well as special.

I first heard about everything moving at spacetime at speed
of light a few years back in the following Elegant Universe
portion when Brain states (comments to follow):

Brian Greene stated:

"Since this view proclaims that space and time are simply
different examples of dimensions, can we speak of an object's
speed through time in a manner resembling the concept of its
speed through space? We can.

A big clue for how to do this comes from a central piece of
information we have already encountered. When an object moves
through space relative to us, its clock runs slow compared to
ours. That is, the speed of its motion through time slows down.
Here's the leap: Einstein proclaimed that all objects in the
universe are always traveling through spacetime at one fixed
speed - that of light. This is a strange idea; we are used to the
notion that objects travel at speeds considerably less than that
of light. We have repeatedly emphasized this as the reason
relativistic effects are so unfamiliar in the everyday world. All
of this is true. We are presently talking about an object's
combined speed through all four dimensions -three space and one
time - and it is the object's speed in this generalized sense that
is equal to that of light. To understand this more fully and to
reveal its importance, we note that like the impractical
single-speed car discussed above, this one fixed speed can be
shared between the different dimensions-different space and time
dimensions, that is. If an object is sitting still (relative to
us) and consequently does not move through space at all, then in
analo gy to the first runs of the car, all of the object's motion
is used to travel through one dimension-in this case, the time
dimension. Moreover, all objects that are at rest relative to us
and to each other move through time-they age-at exactly the same
rate or speed. If an object does move through space, however,
this means that some of the previous motion through time must be
diverted. Like the car traveling at an angle, this sharing of
motion implies that the object will travel more slowly through t
ime than its stationary counterparts, since some o f its motion
is now being used to move through space. That is, its clock will
tick more slowly if it moves through space. This is exactly what
we found earlier We now see that time slows down when an object
moves relative to us because this diverts some of its motion
through time into motion through space. The speed of an object
through space is thus merely a reflection of how much of its
motion through time is diverted .

We also see that this framework immediately incorporates the fact
that there is a limit to an object's spatial velocity: the
maximum speed through space occurs if all of an object's motion
through time is diverted to motion through space. This occurs
when all of its previous light-speed motion through time is
diverted to light-speed motion through space. But having used up
all of its motion through time, this is the fastest speed through
space that the object-any object-can possibly achieve. This is
analogo us to our car being test-driven directly in the
north-south direction. just as the car will have no speed left
for motion in the east-west dimension, something traveling at
light speed through space will have no speed left for motion
through time. Thus light does not get old; a photon that emerged
from the big bang is the same age today as it was then. There is
no passage of time at light speed."

----------
My comments

I think it's just for layman. Ask Ph.D. like Tom Roberts
and he would tell you its just metaphor because geometry
rules. The relationship between time and space being
variable is just to satisfy the point of view invariance that
all physics should be the same in all inertial frames.
But I agree with you that it's a great way to look at it
intuitively.

I don't claim the mind is or is not Lorentz invariant. The observer is
a spacetime point that cannot move relative to itself. Therefore all
its ST motion is through time.

I just browse through your paper bec I'm usually busy. Can you
pls. summarize in a paragraph what you are driving at and
what consciousness has got to do with it all?

Kows

Best,
Edgar- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dear Kows,

At last, an intelligent comment! Thanks for a little sensible sanity!

First you are correct as I mention also that this is a great way to
understand how special relativity really works. But it's not just for
laymen. That is the way reality actually works, that everything,
including us, does continually travel through spacetime at the speed
of light.

I'll try to summarize how this idea leads to an explanation of the
hard problem of consciousness, though to understand the details you
should really read the paper.

1. Everything continually travels through ST at the speed of light.
2. This insight provides a firm physical basis for the flow and arrow
of time.
3. It also requires that there must be a privileged present moment
where any entity happens to be in that continuous ST movement. (In
other words the concept of block time in which every past, present and
future moment has equal reality must be discarded.)
4. Thus reality exists only in the present moment, and consciousness
as well.
5. Since the twin paradox shows us that the twins always return to a
common present moment even if their clocktimes are different, we know
that the present moments of all entities in the universe must be a
shared common cosmological present moment, even though clocktimes may
vary.
6. Consciousness then is simply the experience of time flowing through
the present moment. Consciousness itself, as distinct from the
contents of consciousness which come and go, is the direct awareness
of the basic cosmological process, the flow of time though the
present. Individual human and animal consciousnesses will experience
this basic process differently in terms of their particular cognitive
and sensory structures, but the fundamental process of consciousness
itself is the same.

Thus consciousness itself (in the sense of the hard problem, as
opposed to its details), is irreducible. It can not be understood in
terms of human brain structure, or by any quantum processes operative
therein (though these may explain the particular details of the way
humans experience consciousness. Consciousness itself is direct
awareness (filtered through each organism's biological structure) of
the cosmological fact of the flow of time through the present moment.

BTW... i'm not saying Bohm or other views are more sophisticated and
yours not. The truth is we stil don't know the essense or origin
related to the Hard Problem or why we are aware of being aware.
Some say we are just sophisticated machines. Whatever is the
truth, it will be settled by empirical facts. Reality doesn't care
about our opinions. Only the truth matters. This is like the
Einstein Field Equations don't care what we think, we'd fall
down when jumping from airplane.

Also I think only pure mathematician can arrive at the theory of mind
and everything because in the dimension of minds, no concept
may be possible but purely mathematical reality. Maybe in 2,500 A.D.
Physicists there may figure it out. Meanwhile let's use our mind
and improve it. Some people like Jack Sarfatti spends a lifetime
searching for ...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Edgar, Let's just focus on your paper as this is what this thread is
all about. I spent like 15 minutes looking at the few pages of
your paper. What you seem to be doing is taking literally that
all objects travel within spacetime at speed of c. As a result.
There is a Privileged Time which is the time from the view
of the collective Spacetime. Also a single Present from the
same view since you don't believe in the "blocks" as the
final reality (the block being the different frames of reference
with different activities and complete non-simultaneity). Now
my comments. You really look at it from a bigger perspective.
But there seems to be a correlate in Special Relativity for
it. Wheeler said space is relative, time is relative, but
spacetime is absolute. So the 4 dimensional absolute
spacetime & its interval is the issue. Now you treat it
literally as an object hence there is outside time and space
that hold the 4 dimensional spacetime continuum and
its interval. Hmm.. pls. correct me if I got your main idea
before preceeding with the analysis.

Kows

Kows,

That is pretty accurate. I think you got the first point OK. Just one
caveat, not sure what you mean by there is 'outside time and space'. A
hypersphere doesn't necessarily have to exist in a larger dimensional
space. There need be no 'outside'. An outside would correspond to the
future, which does not exist.

And thanks for just focusing on the paper. You are the only one on the
thread who seems to be able to do that.

Edgar

.

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