Re: How do the brain neurons compute?


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On 4 nov, 11:52, "Androcles" <Engin...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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On 4 nov, 09:24, "Androcles" <Engin...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



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On 3 nov, 18:00, Tenifer <tensorsur...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 4, 2:48 am, s...@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On 1 nov, 18:57, Tenifer <tensorsur...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

What kind of algorithm do our brain neurons use? How do they
compute
to make us aware and produce our mind?

Neurologists chose their profession because they are poor in math.

Therefore only physicists excelling in mathematical algorithm can
figure out how the brain compute.

Anyone got an theory or mathematical idea how the brain neurons
compute (or what kind of algorithm it use)?

You should look up the work of Hebb in the 1940's. He completely
solved how neural networks correlate data. No algorithm required
except for simulating neural nets on linear computers.

The seat of awareness has long been established as being the
néocortex (a 6-layer neural network). You would have to dig into
neurophysiology archive to learn about this. Starting with
Pavlov, many others explored the various aspects. Look up
Eccles for references to most of them. Chauchard in the
1940's 1950's finished the job.

You could get hold of "On Intellignece" by Jeff Hawkins. He
rediscovered much of this and is good at explaining.

A pity that most in the pertaining disciplines don't even
know that all of this has been understood long ago.

No integrated refs in lectures for the past half century
ensured that these discoveries remained sleeping in
dusty archives.

André Michaud

So it is theoretically possible to build a self-aware computer
or android.

This also has been explored, and no. It will never be possible
because self-awareness requires life (sentience) to be involved
from the getgo so the network can chose by itself what is good
and what is bad for it.

Training real artificial neural nets with more than 1 layer to do
anything useful is extremely difficult since they can't be
programmed. On top of being technically difficult to build,
they have to be trained and guided for hours to be conditioned
into giving the correct answer or providing the correct reaction
for each set of input data.

I wonder when will we have these silicon sentient
beings joining with us in the planet. Do you know of folks
seriously building this now?

Some have tried and wasted their time. Can't be done.

André Michaud

It is theoretically possible to build a self-aware computer,
proven by "I think, therefore I am" -- Rene DesCartes.

Old Rene was sentient to start with before he could
work through the maze and get to that conclusion.

I for one won't be on alert in case one taps me on the
shoulder from behind as he utters "See ! Here I am.
You were wrong."

André Michaud

Nature has succeeded where man (a self-aware computer)
has (so far) failed. But man has only just begun trying, it took
Nature billions of years of trial and error. The issue isn't
whether man will succeed or not, but whether it is possible
to succeed. And it is. "Can't be done" applies to da Vinci's
helicopter, which cannot fly as designed. The underlying
principle behind it does fly, though.

[André]
In this case, "Can't be done" isn't based on any belief but
on the sum of consistant research done in the field.

[Androcles]
"Can't be done" applies to da Vinci's helicopter, which cannot
fly as designed. That is consistent with the sum of research done
in the field. Nevertheless helicopters do fly, your "Can't be done"
is your inexpert opinion only.


[André]
You can build as complex an artificial neural net as
you want, it just won't have self awarenes from the
get go.

[Androcles]
I didn't claim it would, a new-born child is not self-aware.
Self-awareness comes when the child can think "me", detectable
to others by the utterance of "I want", which is very different to
the autonomic reaction of suckling in response to hunger.
I would doubt very much an insect could be self-aware,
although an intelligent dog or ape or otter or dolphin etc.
might be. My cat cannot speak, but I am certain he is aware
of me and does recognise me by sight. You cannot enter my
home without being sniffed at, you are not me.
http://www.research.ibm.com/autonomic/index.html



[André]
Self awareness is required to start with for any choice to
be made consistant with self survival.

[Androcles]
Awareness of any kind is not a requirement for survival, bacteria
and grass manage to survive without it. Self-survival is a term
you'll have to define for me, I'd need to know its meaning to
discuss it.


[André]
Artificial networks have no preference.
Unless extensively trained into a
specific direction for each possible choice they are
likely to have to make, they will just as readily chose
to turnoff their own power than to replace their battery.

[Androcles]
Survival is an autonomic built-in function which is difficult
to over-ride, but the self-aware suicidal subject does manage it.
Indeed, only the self-aware can voluntarily commit the act
of suicide.
We are discussing awareness in general and in particular
self-awareness, not survival. Please limit and focus your
comments on the issue at hand rather than peripheral
considerations such as survival.

[André]
They don't even don't care. They are inert.

[Androcles]
Bacteria and trees don't even don't care. They are NOT inert.
Nor are they self-aware or even aware. Please limit and focus your
comments on the issue at hand rather than peripheral considerations
such as survival.


I for one WILL be on alert in case one taps me on the
shoulder from behind as it utters "See ! Here I am.
You were right, André is asleep."

[André]
In your dreams, if you want my opinion.

[Androcles]
I've always taken you for one of the more intelligent contributors
to the newsgroup, and I want an intelligent discussion from
which I might learn something. Opinions are like arseholes,
everybody has one and they all stink. I would not ask anyone
for their opinion, only for a logical conclusion. You know what
you can do with your opinion. Keep it to yourself. Instead, give
me a logical, well thought-out argument that is pertinent to
awareness in general and self-awareness in particular.



Never underestimate the power of the human mind, André.
If I replaced a single neuron in my brain with an electronic
circuit that is FUNCTIONALLY identical and interfaces
with the rest (even if not physically identical), then I would
be unaware of the change.

[André]
Agreement. But you do have self awareness to start with.

[Androcles]
Yes, I do, but not to start with. It came about some time
after I was born but I was not aware of my self-awareness
until I was about 10 years old and the self-awareness itself
didn't occur until I could say "I want...". The true self-awareness
comes with the realisation that I will someday die. That day is
approaching rapidly and heightens my self-awareness to an
unprecedented level. I can no longer put off until tomorrow
that which I should have accomplished yesterday, I must
do it now.


Extend that concept to all my neurons and I can become
eternal. And a god.

[André]
.... Until the part that sustains your self awareness dies of
old age. then your eternal artificial neural net will stop
doing rational choices consistant with continued existance.

[Androcles]
Electronics do not die of old age, they can be replaced and
duplicated. The elixir of youth is within our grasp. To not
take up the challenge is voluntary suicide. Too late for me,
too late for you, but the possibility is there for others.
But build a bomb instead, mankind is insane anyway.
Carry on saying "Can't be done", André, and it will be done.
It just cannot be done by you, for you lack the foresight.
Go pray to a higher power. I'm told God helps those that
help themselves so cube it instead of squaring it, that's
a higher power. The part that sustains the self-awareness
is called "soul" and your trust in it is religious, not scientific.


.

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