Re: expansion
- From: john280109 <vegan16@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:48:47 -0800 (PST)
On Jan 29, 11:04 am, moro...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Michael Moroney)
wrote:
john280109 <vega...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
On Jan 28, 4:35 pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Michael Moroney wrote:
john280109 <vega...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
For there to be expansion where all points are
accelerating away from each other, there has to be
a center. Otherwise you got stuff going all directions.
Therefore if you subscribe to 'expanding universe',
you subscribe to 'we are the center'.
Where is the center of the surface of an inflating balloon, on which all
points are receding from each other?
All points on the surface of that balloon are equally the center.
Well, it's pretty trivial that a perfect sphere has
a surface that's identical in all directions.
This is not true of a balloon. There's the
little matter of the nozzle.
Use your imagination, John. I mentioned the balloon surface since it is
the most common example of something that is expanding, with no center
and no edge. A physical object that everyone has seen, the balloon.
Now, if the nozzle bothers you, imagine a perfect sphere that is
expanding. There is no center of the surface. There is no edge of the
surface. Yet dots on the surface will retreat away from each other,
and the speed they retreat from each other is proportional to their
distance along the surface.
Now, if you paint spots
on your sphere's surface and then expand the
sphere, all the spots *do not* distance themselves equally;
spots directly opposite each other, i.e. the two
axes, will go at the rate of growth of the diameter-
points closer than half circumference will separate
faster.
Now you're cheating. The balloon surface world is two dimensional, but
now you're talking about the third dimension, which doesn't exist for
the two dimensional balloon surface world.
OK, wait, in order to explain the greater
universe, which we assume to be real, you want to
equate it with something having no center, and also you want
it to have no edge- neither of which conditions has been seen
in anything real to my knowledge.
I just gave an example.
Plus, you say there's no edge, but you say it's expanding-
expanding with relation to what? Is the whole universe expanding?
And if not, then what?
Take the balloon analogy into another dimension. A 3 dimensional
"surface" of a 4 dimensional hypersphere. Now, this is much harder
to imagine than the balloon, since it's not easy to think in 4 dimensions,
as we humans are confined to 3 dimensions. All "dots" (3D objects instead
of 2D paint dots) "painted" on the hypersurface will retreat from each
other, at a rate proportional to their distance. Just like we see in our
universe! You may mention how you could go all the way around and come
back to the starting point. There are speed of light limitations, but I
see no reason why one of the extremely distant galaxies we see out there
may be our very own Milky Way, or a progenitor, as it existed billions of
years ago.
Now you may want to bring up the analogy of moving from the surface of the
balloon, through the balloon to the other side - clear across the
universe, you may say. Maybe so, but that involves the 4th dimension,
which is not accessible to us. "Cheating", just like you talked about
leaving the surface of the balloon, going through it to the other side.
It's still pretty far away, for the perfect sphere with the 2D surface
universe, it's "d" away instead of "pi*d/2" away. Now if you get even
more imaginative, we can think of pinching a partially inflated balloon so
that opposite surfaces touch. Opposite sides of the balloon universe
become very close, but still require travel through the extra dimension.
In our 3D surface universe, the "wormholes" of science fiction become
possible. I don't think such wormholes have anything to do with black
holes, and are probably impossible, since they require access to an extra
dimension, as well as "something" "pinching" the whole universe.
Many call time the extra dimension. I consider the extra dimension to
be spacelike but inaccessible to us. However, the universe expands at
a constant rate in this dimension so it is proportional to time, so
time has some of the characteristics of the extra dimension.
Gobbledegook-
Now, if we want to talk about gobbledegook, we can start talking about
all the gobbledegook you post on spin here.
So cruel!!
But listen to your argument. An expanding
sphere's surface with dots- only the distance
along the surface between the dots is
considered- the sphere's surface itself is
imagined to be flat.
Humph.
A flat sphere's surface. OK, you take away
a dimension but it's still a sphere? A flat
sphere?
OK, your first statement should be;
Let sphere A be flat. Then expand the flat sphere.
That's why redshift occurs.
Of course, just when you need it,
you'll find the sphere that was flat you lent
to someone.
You could call it Flat Area Residing on Two-dimensional Spheres,
or FARTS
:-)
john
john
.
- References:
- expansion
- From: john280109
- Re: expansion
- From: Sam Wormley
- Re: expansion
- From: john280109
- expansion
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