Re: Way OT: Asia Earthquake

From: Christopher M. Jones (christopher.m.jones_at_gmail.com)
Date: 01/04/05 

Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 20:39:19 -0600

Andre Lieven wrote:
> "Christopher M. Jones" (christopher.m.jones@gmail.com) writes:
>>>Oh, please: That being such a nit of no change of menaing,
>>>that it only further makes my point.
>>
>>Accuracy is kind of important.
>
> So is intent and priorly accepted meaning.

Intent is meaningless in communication without accuracy.
If you intend to say "open the window" but instead say
"froggle the bilzbit" then you have missed saying what
you intended to say entirely.

>>You could have said the
>>US imports whale oil for its automobiles and still have
>>had the same general meaning yet you would still be
>>wrong in the details.
>
> Again, wrong.

Yup, thanks for being a man and admiting it.

>>Oh, and by the way, before I forget, Canada imports
>>almost exactly as much oil per capita as the US does
>>(~12.9 barrels per person per year for Canada, ~13.5
>>for the US). See above regarding issues of accuracy.
>
> Yet, you leave out that Canada *exports* over 1 million
> bbl per day...

I didn't leave that out, it's relevant but it doesn't
bear on your point. Your point concerned imports only,
and Canada does, in fact, import some petroleum products.
Whether or not it is energy independent is irrelevant to
this point. Interestingly, the US exports petroleum
as well.

>>>>Europeans pay no more for their imported oil than anyone
>>>>else, including the US. European gasoline is so expensive
>>>>at the pump because of massive taxation.
>>>
>>>Indeed. That allows infrastructure upkeep.
>>
>>Having been on several extended road trips longer than
>>100 miles in the last year I can't say I noticed the roads
>>in any particularly undrivable condition.
>
> Not been to NYC/New Jersay, lately, eh ?
>
>
>>Indeed, for the
>>most part they were more than satisfactory. I'm curious
>>though, have you ever done the research to find out where
>>all the money from European (or Canadian) gas taxes goes?
>
> A lot of it goes to general revenues, to be sure. But, in
> Canada, more is scheduled to be given to cities, so that
> they can use it for road and infrastructure work.

So your claim that the high gas taxes in Europe are for
infrastructure upkeep is, in fact, by your own admission
false, then?

>>Considering that not all the gas tax in the US goes to
>>infrastructure upkeep I highly doubt that all of it in
>>Europe does.
>
> Never said that it did...

Oh, you quite clearly implied that it did. You specified
infrastructure upkeep for the reason European gas taxes
are as high as they are (many times higher than in the US).
Let me put a sharp point on it, what is the fraction of
the portion gasoline taxes in Europe above the US tax level
which is used for "infrastructure upkeep"? If this number
is below half then clearly those higher tax rates are not
due to "infrastructure upkeep" at all, but general revenue
gathering.

>>>>Oddly, Europe imports just as much oil per capita as the
>>>>US (around 13.5 barrels per person per year).
>>>
>>>Sure. Now try this one: Which nation/continent is using
>>>millions of fuel guzzling personal SUVs ?
>>
>>Umm, let's see, many nations and every continent except
>>Antarctica (and perhaps Australia). Sales of 4x4 SUVs
>>in France were up 11% in 2004, and nearly a million SUVs
>>are sold in Europe every year, they seem very popular
>>everywhere.
>
> Surely even you understand that using different types of
> stats ( " 11% ", " a million " ) is deceptive, not to
> mention that you offer no *context* for those stats.
>
> If one sells 1000 widgets, one year, and 1110, the next,
> thats an " 11% " increase, yet the *absolute numbers*
> aren't up very much.

They are not deceptive at all, they are direct refutations
of your implications concerning America's SUV habits. It
was you who asked which nation/continent was using millions
of SUVs. All of the major continents and many nations
meet this criteria. As I said, SUVs are selling at nearly
a million a year in Europe, and growing.

> Now, lets try that agaion: In which nation did *mass* sales
> of SUVs start in ?

Let's try this again. Can you possibly let your little pet
hatred of America dim just a moment for you not to be blinded
to the facts as they exist in reality?

>>>>I'm not sure whether you're being serious here or not,
>>>>but at the very least you are wrong in the points you
>>>>make.
>>>
>>>Nope. The point stands: Canada has enough fuel for itself,
>>>and Europe uses it's fuel far more efficiently than does
>>>the US.
>>
>>Oh, I see we've gone into Andre-fantasy-land now. Fair
>>enough, enjoy your stay.
>
> <Projection>
>
>
>>>Only the US needs to import so much for it's TOYS.
>>
>>Except that Europe and Canada need to import almost exactly
>>the same amount, and they have the same toys too!
>
> Well, as I've already said, Canada imports into it's east,
> and *exports* from it's west.

I guess in Andre-fantasy-land Europe doesn't exist except
at your convenience. Note very carefully your statement that
"only the US needs to import so much oil for it's TOYS." Note
also that Europe imports as much oil per capita as the US and
that Europe has millions of SUVs. Would you like to rephrase
your anti-US screed now or would you prefer to just shut up
before you dig a deeper hole of inaccuracies and falsities?

> But, its not like a detail such as that will stop your
> " everyone else does it, so we don't have to be *responsible*
> for anything " rant.

I don't think you'll find that point in anything I said. But
don't let me get in the way of your "the US is uniquely bad
because it does things others do to a similar degree!"
temper tantrum.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Way OT: Asia Earthquake
    ... you leave out that Canada *exports* over 1 million ... That allows infrastructure upkeep. ... > are sold in Europe every year, ... Well, as I've already said, Canada imports into it's east, ...
    (sci.space.history)
  • Re: Way OT: Asia Earthquake
    ... > The US imports, ... and are not dependent on foreign oil. ... Europe pays no significantly greater price for its oil than ... about "millions of SUVs" on certain continents, ...
    (sci.space.history)
  • Re: [OT] What the hell is up with France?
    ... Just because Canada was very racist once doesn't mean it's very racist now. ... I know you weren't saying it in all seriousness, if any, but this tight hugging of tradition to the chest is why there is so much trouble integrating immigrants into European societies. ... Europe doesn't have a freaking clue, while Canada and the U.S. are obviously doing something right. ... Not that I'm placing any blame on anyone alive today, since it clearly was none of your doing, and were it not done there might not even be the North America now that I call home. ...
    (rec.games.roguelike.adom)
  • Re: Way OT: Asia Earthquake
    ... > Intent is meaningless in communication without accuracy. ... > the portion gasoline taxes in Europe above the US tax level ... SUVs are selling at nearly ... motor vehical market, V/ the *market share* of US bought SUVs, ...
    (sci.space.history)
  • Re: {OT} The New Yanker Times going down....
    ... Canada and Europe Ponder Trade Pact ... integrated with that of the United States. ...
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