Re: Way OT: Asia Earthquake

From: Christopher M. Jones (christopher.m.jones_at_gmail.com)
Date: 01/05/05 

Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:28:08 -0600

Andre Lieven wrote:
> "Christopher M. Jones" (christopher.m.jones@gmail.com) writes:
>>Intent is meaningless in communication without accuracy.
>
> In the words of Monty Python: " Yes, it is ! ".
>
> Intent, in a converstaion, allows people to not have to be 100%
> literal robots. It speeds actual communication, unless one is
> the Casinni probe, and the other is the DSN.

The "oil" vs. "gas" correction was just a nit-pick, but
it has turned out to be indicative of your consistent
lack of accuracy. Yes, intent is important and yes 100%
accuracy is generally an impossible standard, but it is
also worthwhile to take the effort to ensure that your
message is not lost in a cloud of inaccuracy and falsity.

>>If you intend to say "open the window" but instead say
>>"froggle the bilzbit" then you have missed saying what
>>you intended to say entirely.
>
> Straw man: " froggle the bilzbit " is meaningless and not-English.
>
> " Gasoline " and " oil " ARE both English. Thus, your analogy fails.
>
[snip]
>>>Yet, you leave out that Canada *exports* over 1 million
>>>bbl per day...
>>
>>I didn't leave that out, it's relevant but it doesn't
>>bear on your point. Your point concerned imports only,
>
> No, my point was about *total* oil flows.
>
> The US imports, but does NOT export oil. Canada does both,
> thus you tried to compare *dissimilar* situations.
>
> So, " be a man ", and deal with your errors.
>
> Thats *two*, now...

Let's go back to your original words. You said:

[quote]
Indeed: When is the *US* going to *cease* it's unilateral
heroin-like *dependance* on imported cheap gasoline ?

We Canadaians produce ours: Europeans are willing to pay
for theirs, and adjust their lives.
[end quote]

Certainly, Canadaians [sic], assuming you mean Canadians, do
indeed produce the vast majority of their gasoline from
local sources, and are not dependent on foreign oil.
Nevertheless, Canada still imports as much petroleum per
person (mostly from the US) as does the US, so the point with
regard to current import levels is rather moot. More so,
quite a lot of America's oil comes from Canada. Is Canada so
evil that using their oil renders America evil as well? I
think you see the farcical nature of this whole concept to
begin with. As for Europe, you state that they pay for their
imported oil, drawing a distinction between Europe's oil
importing and America's importing of "cheap" oil. However,
Europe pays no significantly greater price for its oil than
does the US, so the distinction is, in reality, non-existent.

Where, then, is your condemnation for Europe's (or Japan's,
or China's, or Korea's) dependence on imported oil? If you
have none then it raises the question of whether your
condemnation of America's dependence on oil imports is about
oil or just a convenient excuse to bash America.

>>So your claim that the high gas taxes in Europe are for
>>infrastructure upkeep is, in fact, by your own admission
>>false, then?
>
> Straw Man #2: I never said that ALL such revenues went to such.
>
> Please post PROOF that I wrote exactly that, or take your place
> with LaLiar...

I said: "European gasoline is so expensive at the pump because
of massive taxation."

To which you replied: "Indeed. That allows infrastructure
upkeep."

The clear implication of your response is that the reason
for massive taxation of gasoline in Europe is for
infrastructure upkeep. You have been unable to provide
evidence that the extra taxation is necessary for
infrastructure upkeep. Quite the opposite, you stated that
"[a] lot of it goes to general revenues, to be sure."

Riddle me this, the UK government receives twice as much
funding per year from the Petroleum Revenue Tax as the
value of the US's Federal Highway Fund, yet it has a much
smaller population and fewer roads, where is that money
going?

>>Oh, you quite clearly implied that it did. You specified
>>infrastructure upkeep for the reason European gas taxes
>>are as high as they are (many times higher than in the US).
>
> I spoke of *effect*, now you're trying to claim that I " meant "
> *intent*.
>
> Really, get theee to an ESL class...

I quoted your words above. It is clear that you are
commenting on the higher level of gas taxation in Europe.
Certainly gas taxes in Europe pay for road maintenance,
but that is not the reason for the higher taxes, though
that was the only explanation you gave.

>>>Surely even you understand that using different types of
>>>stats ( " 11% ", " a million " ) is deceptive, not to
>>>mention that you offer no *context* for those stats.
>>>
>>>If one sells 1000 widgets, one year, and 1110, the next,
>>>thats an " 11% " increase, yet the *absolute numbers*
>>>aren't up very much.
>>
>>They are not deceptive at all, they are direct refutations
>>of your implications concerning America's SUV habits.
>
> Oh, so if I deny something, I'm wrong, but when you do it,
> you're right ?

I'm failing to see your point here. You made a statement
about "millions of SUVs" on certain continents, I pointed out
that Europe has millions of SUVs and pointed to the fact
that SUV sales in Europe are at nearly a million vehicles
per year (you do the math on that one). This is a direct
refutation of your attempt to paint the US as unique in
the world as a place containing millions of SUVs. Perhaps
you meant to set the bar higher, probably just high enough
to select America but not Europe, but you failed to do so.
Again, we get back to issues of accuracy. If you can't
be bothered to make accurate claims, the maybe you should
stop making claims.

>>It was you who asked which nation/continent was using millions
>>of SUVs. All of the major continents and many nations
>>meet this criteria. As I said, SUVs are selling at nearly
>>a million a year in Europe, and growing.
>
> A, more robotlike literalities.
>
> Pray, which nation started building, marketing and selling
> them in million-plus lots, FIRST ?

Now you're moving the goal posts I see. Why don't you just
specify that you hate America on faith and let the reader
interpolate the details as they choose?

I doubt you want to get into the argument concerning
*building* vast numbers of SUVs, as Canada builds many
hundreds of thousands of SUVs per year. (Even more
ironically, SUVs are fairly popular in Canada.)

>>Can you possibly let your little pet
>>hatred of America dim just a moment for you not to be blinded
>>to the facts as they exist in reality?
>
> <Projection>
>
> Pointing out what nation's marketing is *responsible* for
> something, is NOT " pet hatred " of *anything*, and only a
> jingoistic " Ammurrica:Love It Or Leave It " Ugly American
> would believe otherwise.

As I pointed out, SUVs are gaining popularity in Europe.
They already have nearly 6% of the new vehicle market share,
and demand is growing tremendously year on year. With regard
to your attempt to link America as the sole producer and
consumer of SUVs I will point to the simple fact that many
SUVs are manufactured by non-US companies (Audi, Mercedes-Benz,
Volkswagon, Toyota).

> Sometimes, the USA and USians are " not loved " for reasons
> entirely rational, too...

Perhaps. However, the indications of this conversation lead to
the conclusion that you express a substantial degree of "not
love" for the USA for entirely irrational and/or non-existent
reasons. Such as America's non-existent extra-cheap oil imports.

>>I guess in Andre-fantasy-land Europe doesn't exist except
>>at your convenience.
>
> My point was about *Canadian* oil use. Europe is irrelevent
> to that, and yet another Jones-Straw-Man...

[quote]
We Canadaians produce ours: Europeans are willing to pay
for theirs, and adjust their lives.
[end quote]

Nope, no mention of Europe there, none at all. Completely
irrelevant...

>>Note very carefully your statement that
>>"only the US needs to import so much oil for it's TOYS." Note
>>also that Europe imports as much oil per capita as the US and
>>that Europe has millions of SUVs.
>
> What is the *per capita* ownership and use ( miles/km per year
> driven ) between European SUVs and USian SUVs ? What is the
> *market share* of European SUVs, in the European personal
> motor vehical market, V/ the *market share* of US bought SUVs,
> in it's personal motor vehicle market ?

So now we're on to a different metric for SUV popularity?
It would help if you would stick to one for more than five
minutes at a time. SUVs are quite substantially more popular
in the US than in Europe (by about a factor of 5 in new car
sales), which is not at all surprising considering America's
different geography and prices at the pump. If your point
were only about the natural vileness of any sort of SUV then
perhaps you could claim that the US is, currently, some 5
times more vile than Europe. However, you specifically tied
your argument to oil consumption and dependence on oil
imports. And on those factors, regardless of the causes,
Europe is just as much dependent on imported oil as the US.

>>don't let me get in the way of your "the US is uniquely bad
>>because it does things others do to a similar degree!"
>>temper tantrum.
>
> And, why should mere facts stop your " The US is great, and anyone
> who dare uses facts and free speech to question that, hates America ! "
>
> Go put some more " USA rooles " stickers under the gun rack of your
> fuel guzzling behemoth...
>
> " The USA: Not everyone bends to it's name ".

I do not own an automobile at present, I drive a bicycle.
This isn't about me or my habits (I do not like SUVs), it
is about facts.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Way OT: Asia Earthquake
    ... US imports whale oil for its automobiles and still have ... Oh, and by the way, before I forget, Canada imports ... Europe does. ...
    (sci.space.history)
  • Re: Way OT: Asia Earthquake
    ... > Europeans pay no more for their imported oil than anyone ... European gasoline is so expensive ... Europe imports just as much oil per capita as the ...
    (sci.space.history)
  • Re: Oil price overcomplication?
    ... That is certainly the picture that propaganda mills like the BBC would ... the US imported 12.9 Million Bbl/d of crude oil & refined ... Europe imported 12.5 Million Bbl/d of ... Oil imports are irrelevant as oil is tradable. ...
    (sci.energy)
  • Re: Georgian Plots?
    ... It is a wound which is still open, - America is a very special country. ... Europe - often very critical to GWB adventures. ... "Tied to oil", yeah. ... America has as many fathers and mothers as nations on the planet: think about blacks, I am sometimes just merely amazed and left mute: from jazz to poetry of rap. ...
    (soc.culture.baltics)
  • IEA stops oil shipments to US
    ... of Mexico oil and gas capacity, Europe has been sending us 2 million barrels ... With US production and refining still crippled, ... England, and elsewhere across Europe. ...
    (misc.invest.stocks)