Re: Air Force Seeks Bush's Approval for Space Weapons Programs


Pat Flannery (flanner@xxxxxxxxxx) writes:
> Andre Lieven wrote:
>
>>Indeed. You stated that " *if* you never tell the crew ", and thats
>>where you were wrong. On what basis do you suggest that they " never
>>tell the crew " ? I would bet that weapons officers learn about what
>>the Other Side has, and I would further bet that said weps speak with
>>much of the rest of the crew.
>>
> I meant, (and I probably should have phrased it better, I admit)

Indeed.

> that
> during training you probably don't go gleefully jumping up and down
> while pointing out to the crews that the ships they will be serving on
> will be about as survivable as a beer can if they ever get clipped by a
> large cruise missile.

Thats rather a Straw Man, I'd say. I would say that the training of
ship's crews would include covering such threats, and how to combat
and defeat them.

> In the case of the destroyer crewman I mentioned,
> everyone on the ship knew that was the case and they didn't have to have
> the fact pointed out to them in detail, any more than a Navy pilot would
> have to have it pointed out to him in detail that if he ejects at low
> altitude with his aircraft inverted, he will probably end up in a
> self-dug grave.

True. However, your statement seemed to suggest that crewmen who were
not " gleefully " told such, had no idea that it was a matter of reality
in matters of the Other Side. That suggestion was, of course, false.

>>>The guy I talked to served on a destroyer in the
>>>Gulf, and he said that was the major concern anytime they got near the
>>>Iranian Silkworm sites- that they were going to get one inbound that
>>>would get through their defenses the way the two Exocets got through the
>>>Stark's defenses, and use its infrared homer to zero in on the ship's
>>>funnel, after which the ship would be fatally damaged. I'm sure the crew
>>>knew that a Silkworm is an upgraded Styx, and that Styx missiles sank
>>>the Israeli destroyer Eilat in 1967. The first two Styx hits nearly
>>>ripped that ship in half, the crew somehow managed to keep it afloat for
>>>two hours, only to get hit by another Styx that finished it
>>>off...followed by yet another Styx that blew up amid the survivors in
>>>the water. Stuff like that would tend to keep one on edge.
>>
>>Well, theres a bit of a difference between a WW2 2,000 ton DD, and a
>>modern DD(G) of a greater size, greater damage control ( Note that
>>Stark ate two Exocets, and stayed afloat; a fact that most USN
>>personnel were well aware of, I'd bet ), and modern anti missile
>>systems, from ECM to CIWS.
>
> Yes... also remember Stark never even came close to engaging the
> Exocets, one of which didn't detonate BTW;

Strak's ROEs had them leave the defensive gera turned off. That
changed.

> that the first sign that
> Sheffield had that she was under attack was when a helicopter saw the
> Exocet fly by it inbound towards the ship;

Sheffield's ECM gear was masked by her use of SatCom gear at that time.
Plus, her fit of CIWS was non existant. That class of warship has carried,
since the mid 80s, two Phalanx CIWS'.

> and that there are antiship
> missiles out there like Silkworms and Shaddocks that have far larger
> warheads than Exocets.

Sure. Thats why layered defenses are made, for such threats. I would
not take matters of a naval generation, or three ago, and attempt to
extrapolate such things forward, as the gap between fUSSR and western
naval gera has only gotten larger.

And, the two operators with even a few Shipwrecks are very likely,
were they to try to use them at USN assets, to be struck with carrier
air, at ranges where their SSMs would have zero targets in range.

> If a Shaddock were to hit you, you would be getting a 1 ton warhead
> slammed into you at a speed near Mach 1 riding on a missile that weighs
> in at around 5 tons. That is a lot of destructive force. God help you if
> a 7 ton Shipwreck were to arrive at Mach 2.5.

No, ECM/PDMS/CIWS help you. Plus, SM-2s, strike fighters...

> Here's a question- has any ship in the missile age ever stopped an
> incoming enemy missile in combat (Kamikazes don't count- they are
> manned)? I can't think of one offhand, unless somebody shot down an
> HS-293 glide bomb during the war.

A RN Type 42 shot down a Shaddock fired at USS Missouri during
Desert Storm. Other than that, no one's fired an SSM at a real
target, so you cnanot shoot down what isn't fired.

> I do think they learned how to jam those though.

Yep, that too.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
.

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