Re: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps

From: Albert (alwagner_at_tcac.net)
Date: 06/13/04 

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:41:57 -0500

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:55:47 +1000
"michael" <copsR@yourdoor.com> wrote:

> : "Albert" mailto:alwagner@tcac.net says:
> >
> > Quibbler is correct. And you are wrong. It is the difference in
> > pressure between the input and exhaust that allows work to be done.
> > The greater the difference the more work. Condensing the waste
> > steam at the exhaust increases the pressure differential and hence
> > increases the efficiency.
>
> Yes Albert, it *is* the difference in pressure between
> the input and exhaust that does the work.
>
> So we have now reduced the input to 0.5 STP to
> make it easier to boil.

You lose me with this first statement. Why and how have we reduced
anything but the temperature of the returning condensate?

> So lets say the condensation
> reduces the pressure at exhaust to, say, 0.25 STP.
>
> How have we gained anything over your common or
> garden variety turbines where the energy input into
> the chamber increases pressure to above STP
> with the exhaust operating at STP?
>
> Or to simplify the question to a point where even a
> fan of Savage may understand it - what makes
> (0.50 - 0.25) bigger than (1.25 - 1.0)?

There seems to be some difference in the construction of your system and
the ones I am familiar with. My limited knowledge of steam turbines is
what I remember from being trained as a reactor operator on a nuclear
submarine.

We had a primary and a secondary system. Both were sealed. The primary
system was the reactor core, its pumps and heat exchanger. The secondary
system was the heat exchanger, turbines, condenser and pumps. We had
condensers on the turbine exhausts to create a greater pressure
differential. The condensers were cooled with seawater. The condensate
was then pumped back under pressure into the heat exchanger.

>
> Its the energy coming into the system that produces
> the pressure gradient to do the work. Not the starting
> pressure of the input chamber.
>
> And what is feeding energy into the input chamber
> in the first place? If we are feeding STP 80 degree
> seawater in, what is keeping the input pressure down.
> You can't condense it all away to zero you know (and
> its coming in condensed in the first place).
>
> Hence my reducto ad absurdum. If a turbine operating at
> less than STP can produce more energy for less input
> that one operating at STP, surely one operating at zero
> pressure can produce unlimited energy out for zero energy in.
>
> Or for the utter scientific illiterates who take Savage seriously ...

I have never heard of Savage prior to this thread.
 
> Has it occured to any of Savage's fans that there may
> actually be a reason that none of the regular steam turbine
> generators used the world over run at lower than STP?
> Surely if there was anything to be gained here, some
> engineer just may have twigged to it by now. Maybe its
> a conspiracy by those of us who have actually bothered
> to learn something about physics (e.g. the mechanical
> and structural consulting engineer who reviewed Savage
> at http://tinyurl.com/36hwy ) to hide our slow wittedness.
>
> However I note that a 14 year old (who presumably
> has not begun to learn basic physics yet) found the
> book "well written enough for me to understand completely".
>
> Am I talking to anyone older than 14 here?

I am 62. 

-- 
"Let me give you a definition of ethics: It is good to maintain and
further life; it is bad to damage and destroy life."
	-- Albert Schweitzer

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