Re: Solar Shell

scottlowtherATixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
scottlowtherATixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
scottlowtherAT@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
jsavard@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

This is still an incredibly vast undertaking, for the far distant
future, but at least it doesn't involve re-engineering the Sun.


The biggest problem with imagining far-future giga-engineering projects
is that far too often they seem to require a utopian fascism that
completely controls all sentient life. By the time mankind figures out
how to dial down the sun so that it'll last ten trillion years, we'll
also have figured out how to make the thing blow up on command. War
will make many of these projects moot.

I envision this being done by an individual in their lifetime, not all
of humanity for aeons.

What, blowing up the sun? That's one of those "you only get to do it
once" things.

Still, as with anything, it can be approached step-wise. One can model
what one does certainly. Then, one can do laboratory experiments.
Then, one can do small experiments in the solar environment. Then,
progress to larger experiments. By the time you're ready to divide the
sun into smaller parts, you've got a background of experience.

Such as the cinder that used to be the sun and the smokign ruins of the
former solar system, after the disasterous Solar Subdivision
Mini-Experiment of 2412, where Hillary's Holy Martyr Brigade invaded
the test facility with a quantum computer virus and caused things to
run a little funny.

It is better for a King to be feared than loved, don't you think?

The amazing thing as I think about this is that this project might be
capable of just that.

All that's needed is a chemical laser, intelilgently designed, and
dropped into the sun with a structured fabric floating in the sunlight
above. Something on the scale of say a latter day clementine mission.

Sure. Why not.

Yes, the more one looks at the solar environment the clearer the
approach to use becomes.

Indeed! Leave suns far behind before people gain the ability to blwo
them straight to hell. Those inhabitting the Oort cloud might survive.

Depends on the details, and we don't know the details yet.


What rights do they have over their creation?

"In the Necromonger faith, you keep what you kill."


But we're not killing anything here, we're making stuff.

Uh-huh. What technology has man created that we *haven't* used for war,
or at least weaponized?

Cotton gin? Bridge building? Athletic shoe design? Just to name
three that come to mine.

The ability to destroy the sun will become
available well before the abuility to neatly slice it up into dwarfs,
just as the ability to blow things to smithereens with the H-bomb came
along well before nuclear fusion rockets.

Depends on the details, and we don't know those details yet.

Just as the ability to calculate with with beads and wires preceded the
ability to calculate with gears which preceded the ability to calculate
with electronic circuits. ... the order of difficulty of things
depends on the engineering details and the history of creation and
discovery. You are making judgements that are unwarranted given the
lack of detailed knowledge we have at present..


Success along the lines I envision totally outclasses anything else
humanity could do prior to success. And very quickly too. The ability
to eject from the sun in a controlled way, planetary system sized
masses of raw material and shape and form them into operating finished
products by scattering structured photons off them - is just
mind-boggling.

Indeed. And imagine the fun one could have hacking into the control
computers and making the system go nova rather than just calving off
calmly.

Who would do that and what would be their motivation? Especially since
the perps would get killed in the process.

Ever hear of a suicide bomber?

Yes. This is germaine how?

For ***'s sake, Bill. Take things to a ridiculous extreme: imagine
giving a package to every human on Earth today. Inside the package was
a vial of "Instant Extinction" brand super-Ebola, genetically modified
to wipe out humanity. Also included in the package was *very* clearly
written and recorded verbal instructions: you push the red button, the
virus is released. You push the green button, the virus is incinerated
and a hundred-dollar bill pops out. Do you honestly believe that
*nobody* would push the red button?

Inappropriate comparison. - give the box to 10 top leaders who took
the threat seriously and and you would have a more realistic response.

Humanity is *not* populated exclusively by what modern Western culture
woudl consider to be enlightened, sane people who care for all of
humanity. There are a *lot* of peopel who think that humans are a
blight (ever hear of the "Human extinction Movement?"),

No.

or that an
apocolypse would help bring the Second Coming of Jesus or the Hidden
Imam or Big Bird or whatever. And there is more than a share of people
who are just plain evil or nuts.

True. There are causes for that and those will be addressed as we
advance as a species.

Long time ago we had Right of Conquest. The right of conquest is the
purported right of a conqueror to territory taken by force of arms.

We still have that right.

I figured you'd say that.

Because it's correct.

I figured you'd say that too.

The land you're living on: was it taken from some
group of Injuns a century or three back?

Yes.

Are you going to return it?

No plans for it no.

Are the Anglo-Saxons of England going to give the land back to the
Celts?

Not unless they ask for it like the mean it.

Are the Israelies going to just roll over and let the Arabs wipe
them out for their land?

"Ownership" is defined as "that which I can keep someone else from
taking."

What rule of acquisition is that?


Today we recognize the Right of Patent. If someone creates or
discovers a process - they have something they have rights to use it to
make money and attain power.

Until the Democrats gain full power. Then "make money" will be banned
as being antisocial and against the Public Good.Then the Equalization
of Opportunity Bill will be passed.

You don't know many conservative democrats do you?

Not who actually gain positions of power in the Dem party, no.

Yeah, that's a problem! lol.

If
someone unveils the power to destroy the world, or build vast new ones,
the demand won't be that this someone become a benevolent dictator. It
will be that he turn over that power to some Respected Authority.

Two points - the Respected Authority doesn't understand the process and
could very well in their ignorance bring about the demise of humanity,
and more importantly the demise of those who created the process.

Yes, and? That's hardly stopped mobs from makign such demands before.
or even today. A lot of peopel actually want to turn a lot of power
over to the UN, *despite* the fact that it's run by incompetant
criminals.

A lot? I don't think so.

Also, people would generally respect those who created the process and
understand they're the authority regarding it.

You've GOT to be fucking kidding me.

No.

Hmm.. I'm trying to vissualize this. After working for over a decade
in obscurity, an affable, aging, Bonoesque scientist and his team of
loveable misfits gets an intelligent process working on the sun,
capable of doing all I say. People have a hard time understanding that
the tiny ill defined jet of material flrowing from the sun is larger
than the Earth. Not much is said publicly, and not a whole lot of
interest in the press conference. A press conference is held as the
first metal aeroshell falls to Earth, and the team announces a joint
deal with Alcoa, BHP Billiton, Phelps Dodge that will transform the
industrial economies of Earth generate untold jobs, new wealth, and
create the conditions that will create vast new markets for industrial
metals.

Now, what would motivate there to be a call to take control of this
obscure footnote and remove it from private control? Nothing.

Well, any well run organization would address the possiblity of
negative attention before it occurred.

Ever hear of "fear," Bill? How about "greed?" "Ignorance?"

Yes.

"Holy ***, they're fucking with the sun" will be one hell of a
motivator.

Depends on the details of how its done. 'fucking with the sun' would
be a mischaracterization. 'a minor structured ejection event smaller
than 99.999% of all ejecta produced by the sun but due to the sun's
huge size, will delver all the world's need for metals, whilst
eliminating the need to harm the earth with dangerous and dirty mines -
saving the environment here and saving thousands of lives' would be a
more appropriate spin on things-


Christ unmighty, have you never heard of "eminant domain?"

Yes.

Eminent domain in the U.S means compulsory purchase. In common law
legal systems it is the inherent power of the state to expropriate
private property, or rights in private property, without the owner's
consent, either for its own use or by delegation of the taking power to
third parties who will devote it to "public uses", the most common
examples being public utilities or railroads.

So, we don't want to look like a public utility or railroad. We'll
look like a mine.

The term compulsory purchase originating in the mid-19th century, is
used primarily in England and Wales, and other jurisdictions that
follow the elements of English law. Originally, the power of eminent
domain was assumed to arise from natural law as an inherent power of
the sovereign. Some states (New York, Louisiana) use the term
appropriation as a synonym for an eminent domain taking.

Governments most commonly use the power of eminent domain when the
acquisition of real property is necessary for the completion of public
projects such as roads, military installations, or public buildings.

Since the sun is not in anyone's jurisdiction, this is not going to
happen.

Some states require that before resorting to the use of eminent domain
the condemning body must make an offer of purchase to the owner.

Since the value of the project will be well established - the purchase
price, if it comes to that, will not be in question. It will be the
Net Present Value of all the cash flow the 'solar mine' will produce.
This will be some form of time purchase - involving those who created
it involved in the management, and earning a portion of the profits.
That is, assuming eminent domain is exercised and assuming the case is
lost, there is still wiggle room to a dedicated owner to negotiate a
de-facto continuing control over the asset. But this can all be
avoided by agreeing to pay whatever portion taken by eminent domain and
not paid as a note against the purchase and not paid as a management
fee - turning that around and paying a tax - voluntarily - to avoid
prosecution. Like I said, careful negotiation and managment can avoid
much of this in the US.

The term expropriation as used in the law of eminent domain is not to
be confused with situations in which private property is seized by
revolutionary governments from its former owners and confiscated
without payment. It should also be differentiated from forfeiture which
is an uncompensated seizure of contraband from criminals and its
confiscation by the government.

Since this will not be a criminal enterprise and I do not forsee the US
being taken over by revolutionaries, or me succumbing to revolutionary
control, even if the US should be taken over by revolutionaries, this
is not a credible threat either for a US firm.

So, sending metals to Earth to meet all the world's needs for metal
involves a process that is a gnat on an elephant's ass of the sun, -
actually the proposed process is a virus on the gnats ass on the
elephants ass of the sun... and provides all the world's need for
metal - and they've worked a deal with all the world's metal companies
to increase their market share while reducing their costs in the
process, and paid off the unions and whoever else needs to be paid off
- and eveyrone's happy.

And, there's no government claim on the sun. So, no right of eminent
domain could arise. And since unlike Grotius I won't witholding
saltpeter from the King - there is no need to attract the negative
attention of the powers that be.


Alternatively, that he should "turn the power over to
*me.*" Or that the power should be abandoned entirely.

Who is best suited to control a thing? Someone who creates that thing
and uses it productively, or someone who knows nothing about it and
knows nothing of its value? Hmm...

When has that ever stopped anyone demanding that power be turned over
to someone else?

In a law abiding society that doesn't happen. This is a law abiding
society. So, it won't happen.

Consider if I built an actual, honest-to-Odin nuclear
bomb in my back yard.

That is illegal in the law. So, expect folks to come knocking with
handcuffs and warrants. There is presently no law relating to mining
the sun. There are laws related to mining Earth and transporting
materials off-world. Those have to be addressed - but they can be.
..
In 1946 the Atomic Energy Act established a federal monopoly over the
use, control, and ownership of nuclear technology.

In 1954 Congress amended Atomic Energy Act to allow private ownership
of nuclear materials (i.e. fuel) but maintains certain controls over
its possession and use in the interest of public health and
safety-including the obligation for disposal.

Private construction of a nuclear weapon, or control of weapons grade
material is not permitted by law. This law is well established and not
subject to debate.

However, the ability to mine the sun might fall under the OST and the
maybe 1976 mining acts for US citizens. But OST doesn't include the
sun. It cannot. And, the mining acts involve mining on Earth, not
off-world. There are rules for launching vehicles off-world, and rules
for bringing things back to Earth. But those are rather minor and
easily addressed.

The rules for mining can easily be met even if extended off world since
they relate to the impact of mining on the biosphere of Earth.

The OST requires more thought. I believe the sun is not covered as a
celestial body under the treaty. Planets, moons, and minor bodies of
the solar system are covered. Stars are not. Including the sun.

The Outer Space Treaty represents the basic legal framework of
international space law and, among its principles, it bars States
Parties to the Treaty from placing nuclear weapons or any other weapons
of mass destruction in orbit of Earth, installing them on the Moon or
any other celestial body, or to otherwise station them in outer space.

Since my process involves no persons off-world at all, and use of
chemical laser pulse obviates the need of a nuclear pulse, then, this
isn't a problem.

OST exclusively limits the use of the Moon and other celestial bodies
to peaceful purposes and expressly prohibits their use for testing
weapons of any kind, conducting military maneuvers, or establishing
military bases, installations, and fortifications

No problem here.

The treaty does explicitly forbid any government from claiming a
celestial resource such as the Moon or a planet since they are common
heritage of humanity. Art. II of the Treaty states, in fact, that
"[o]uter space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, is not
subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of
use or occupation, or by any other means."

I'm not claiming the whole sun, only ownership of those useful parts I
bring back, and the right to run automated operations there.

OST does not include the sun however, after a careful reading. In fact
barring the use of the sun privately because it is a common heritage of
humanity would mean that every farmer, forester, fisher, windmill
operator, hydroplant operator, and solar panel operator, would be in
violation of the law, since solar energy is a resource produced by a
celestial object and sunlight would be a common heritage of humanity if
the sun were included in the treaty.

Also, the treaty speaks of stationing troops and military bases on the
celestial objects it covers. Clearly, troops and military bases cannot
be stationed on the sun.

No, the sun cannot be included - and in fact is not in the outer space
treaty at all.
..
Article VI of the Outer Space Treaty deals indeed with international
responsibility, stating that "[t]he activities of non-governmental
entities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies,
shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the
appropriate State Party to the Treaty" and that States Parties shall
bear international responsibility for national space activities whether
carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities.

If this treaty included the sun and all useful resources produced by
the sun then very little activity on Earth would be permitted under the
treaty. Again, the sun is not a celestial body in the terms of this
treaty. Otherwise no oil (which is stored sunlight), no wood, no food,
no animals, no ecology, no wind power, no water power, no solar power -
would be permitted use without oversight and continuing supervision by
the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. Furthermore, the treaty
would have made mention of those celestial bodies where it is
impossible to locate troops or weapons - such as the sun - if the sun
were included.

Do you think that the universal consensus would
be that, since I developed it, it shoudl remain under my control?

Depends on the details. But a well engineered publicity campaign
combined with a well managed business structure, and supply chain -
would result in a ho-hum attitude among the public, and very positive
response in the technical press related to mining. Other more outre
notions such as those discussed here would not be given serious
credence and those who promoted such views would be undermined.
Meanwhile any legal challenges would have a tough row to hoe against
attorneys who knew their rights and the rights of the owners andn
wouldn't take any such challenges lying down.

A researcher known to me wanted to shoot a laser beam through a
hydrogen flame to see what he could make happen! lol.

.

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