Re: Solar Shell

scottlowtherATixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:

There is one detail that's pretty well kinown- the Sun is gawdawful
big! So, impressing a few cubic kilometers with patterned light
doesn't seem like such a big deal.

Or even useful.

A dense hyrogen rich plasma is a nonlinear optical environment. Such an
environment may be ideally suited to be an optical computing platform.
With laser induced fast fusion powered light sources, such platforms
may be established and maintained in such a plasma by controlled fusion
events formed by the operation of the platform itself. The use of
optical tweezers have ben demonstrated in plasmas in the lab. This
might be used by the platform described to manipulate the plasma
environment. The use of optical mollasses have been demonstrated in
plasmas in the lab. This might be used by the platform described to
cool and structure the plasma environment. These are all reasonable
research goals directed toward making use of the solar environment.

The existence of the cotton gin flies in the face of your remark (which
you removed) that no technology has ever eixsted that has not been
turned into a weapon or weaponized.

But the second two are clearly
and obviously bad examples on your part. The ability to quickly
engineer and build bridges has long been a staple of warfare.

I challenge you to show me a weaponized bridge.


http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/imgs/avlb.jpg


How does it kill people exactly?

Atheltic
shoe design has had some role in designing combat boots.

I challenge you to show me a weaponized Nike shoe.

http://www.militarykit.com/images/products_full/footwear_lowa_combat_boot_gtx.jpg


I didn't ask to be shown a combat boot made by Nike. I asked you to
show me a weaponized running show. Sorry for any confusion. You are
shoing me here not a running shoe or athletic shoe but a combat boot.

Even so, how does this boot kill people exactly?

Same technology.


No its not. This isn't designed for marathon running.

It's much easier
to break a rock apart than it it to carve it into a little elephant.

That's a rock. Not the sun. The sun is more like a candle.
It's much easier to blow a candle out than make it explode.

Please refer to what it takes for a star to go Supernova. It ain't
easy

Please refer to what it takes to surgically repair a human brain. And
what it takes to bash said brains out with a rock.

Thats how rocks and brains work. Not the sun. As I said, its easier
to blow a candle out than to make it into a bomb. Oh, you can take the
wax in a candle, grind it to a powder, and mix it with an oxidizer and
then add the right detonator, and get a dandy bomb! But that's a lot
harder than lighting the candle, and far far harder than blowing it
out.

Similar for the sun. Lots of dwarf stars like the sun are easy to
light. Not so many blow up. With structured blasts the sun can be
made to blow off its metals, and can be made to break into pieces that
would dramatically reduce its output. It would take more effort than
any of these other projects to tune the ejetion events with compression
events to cause the sun to detonate. - and even then, the detonation
wouldn't be complete - not that it would matter to any civilization
orbiting it - since a partial detonation would be bad.

But we should be clear about the reality of the situation. If my
technology works as advertized, its clearly easiest to pull stuff out
of the sun compared to controlling the ejection across the whole sun to
cause it to spin. Its plainly easier to get it to spin than break
apart. Its obviously easier to get it to break apart than rapidly
burn. Its clear that such rapid burns for dwarf stars like the sun
cannot go to completion without being restarted at some point.

No, for tiny starts like the sun, and its sub-parts if they are ever
made, its far easier to reduce their output than increease it, and very
hard to cause a complete conversion of hydrogen in the sun explosively.

If you have the technology to actually carve up the sun into a group of
smaller, separate stars, you will ahve already long since developed the
tech to just plain destroy the star.

You say that based on models inappropriately applied. Rocks, rocks
smashed into someone's head. I know it seems clear to you -but your
apparent knowing is not arrived at through critical thinking, but
through prejudice.

Consider what is really going on for a second. I am talking about
introducing self-replicating plasma structures that produce controlled
ejection plumes to gather and shape materials for human use that are
presently located in the sun.

Now consider;

A single ejection plume can extract material from the sun at very high
rates.

A single plume is easier than multiple ejection plumes being
coordinated Multiple ejection plumes can construct huge objects around
the sun, like the shell we're discussing.

Multple plumes are easier than using relativistic ejection plumes
directed tangentialy to the solar surface which are needed to cause the
sun to spin.

Multiple relativisitc plumes are easier than using variable
relativisitic ejection plumes that vary in direction to the solar
surface to cause the sun to break up in a controlled way as it spins.

Multiple relativisitc plumes that very are easier than using highly
variable relativisitc ejection plumes very precisely coordinated to
produce spherical compression waves that cause detonation of a portion
of the solar fuel - incidentially wiping out the self replicating
plasmas that sustains it.

Precise spherical compression waves - that are self limiting in
objects the size of the sun - are easier than precisely colliding and
configuring divided masses in controlled ways to obtain larger yields
than are possible with precise spherical compression

So, clearly, while it might one day be possible to use these systems in
warfare, if they are ever developed, the weaponized version of this
technology is several steps removed from its commercial version - and
likely will never be developed by humanity unless there is a pressing
need for it.

Success along the lines I envision totally outclasses anything else
humanity could do prior to success. And very quickly too. The ability
to eject from the sun in a controlled way, planetary system sized
masses of raw material and shape and form them into operating finished
products by scattering structured photons off them - is just
mind-boggling.

Indeed. And imagine the fun one could have hacking into the control
computers and making the system go nova rather than just calving off
calmly.

Who would do that and what would be their motivation? Especially since
the perps would get killed in the process.

Ever hear of a suicide bomber?

Yes. This is germaine how?

Wow. Just... wow. The fact that you can't figure that out... says much.

The fact you can't figure out why I asked the question says equally
much.

Yes... that you are monstrously ignorant of human motivations.

You are ignorant of how we have been kept safe from nuclear
annihilation for over 50 years.

For ***'s sake, Bill. Take things to a ridiculous extreme: imagine
giving a package to every human on Earth today. Inside the package was
a vial of "Instant Extinction" brand super-Ebola, genetically modified
to wipe out humanity. Also included in the package was *very* clearly
written and recorded verbal instructions: you push the red button, the
virus is released. You push the green button, the virus is incinerated
and a hundred-dollar bill pops out. Do you honestly believe that
*nobody* would push the red button?

Inappropriate comparison. - give the box to 10 top leaders who took
the threat seriously and and you would have a more realistic response.

Incorrect.

Absolutely correct, you don't get to come to the control room without
an invitation. Others must deal with security. Ever try to get into
the control room of a nuclear power plant?

You don;t get to enter a cockpit without an invite, either... yet a
group of people whose motives you couldn't possibly comprehend managed
to do it a few years back.

Inappropriate comparison. There are tens of thousands of commercial
aircraft flying billions of people around the world everyvyear for the
past quarter century at least. Manifestly not what I'm proposing. I'm
proposing a single control room managing a single ejection plume
produced in the sun. Even my comparison to nuclear power plants is not
truly appropriate. As there are 101 nuclear plants operating in the
US.

No, a more appropriate comparison is a nuclear power plant control
room, or entry into the PANTEX plant in Texas

http://www.pantex.com/issm/index.html

I would have security on par with this, with similar successful
results.

This control system will be
at least as secure as that.

By the time mankind can subdivide the sun, our population
will probably be measurable in trillions.

Our populaiton will never exceed 12 billion on Earth without off-world
support.

Ummm... who said "on Earth," Bill?

I did.

Please do try to keep up with your
betters.

When I meet them, I do.

Maybe quadrillions. So there
will be vast numbers of people spread to hell and gone from here to
Omicron Persei 8, alkl of whom you will need to control and prevent
from tinkering with your little construction project.

Actually, if this idea works as expected, this could happen in your
lifetime.

Riiiiiight.

I see you have formulated a well-reasoned cogent response! lol. My
betters indeed! haha..

(ever hear of the "Human extinction Movement?"),

No.

Then you really need to research your fellow man for a while. We ain't
exactly quite right in the head as a species.

The rantings of lunatics don't interest me! lol.

Your own writings don't interest you?

Indeed they do. QED

(Wow, that was easy)

hahaha... ayup! lol.


or that an
apocolypse would help bring the Second Coming of Jesus or the Hidden
Imam or Big Bird or whatever. And there is more than a share of people
who are just plain evil or nuts.

True. There are causes for that and those will be addressed as we
advance as a species.

Sure. Genetic engineering will make a better breed of ideologically
pure super-slave ready to serve their Draka overloards.


Actually, cross-breed vigor works in humans too.

ZOOM! And the point goes right over Bill's head.

No, yours.

Oh, I was thinking more along the lines of Ferengi

No doubt.

You're the star-trek fan aren't you?

Yes, and? That's hardly stopped mobs from makign such demands before.
or even today. A lot of peopel actually want to turn a lot of power
over to the UN, *despite* the fact that it's run by incompetant
criminals.

A lot? I don't think so.

Once again: do some research.

Most of humanity doesn't trust their mayor, let alone the UN.

When did "lots" become synonymous with "most?"

Because what most people do is what determines the response of society.


If,say, one million
people wanted to kill *you,* it'd be fair to say that "lots" of peopel
wanted to kill you. But one million people compared to the population
or Earth, or even the US, is not "most."

That's true. But you are raising all these examples as if they
actually mean something to what I'm proposing and you haven't shown a
connetion.

If I fly a solar sample return mission using the technology described I
don't see anyone objecting to it or opposing it if properly presented
and managed. There was none for the comet return mission.

Once the ejection plume is operational on the sun, I don't see anyone
objecting to the commercial use of returned samples (if any) after the
science is done.

And, once samples are returned, I don't see any objections occuring as
the rate is quietly increased. In fact, with the right PR campaign
being hailed as a hero. After all, increased use of strategic
materials along with energy allows expansion of industry to occur
cleanly, and safely. Profits earned by the mining companies who
process and market the increasing flow of metals allow them to shut
down mines and reclaim them to a high degree, and muster out with very
good pension all their workers, and send to college all the kids of all
the workers to train them in other professions.

Actually, I think I know the theme song I'll use for the campaign...

Here Comes The Sun
(George Harrison)

Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
And I say it's all right
Little darlin' it's been a long cold lonely winter
Little darlin' it feels like years since it's been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
And I say it's all right
Little darlin' the smiles returning to their faces
Little darlin' it seems like years since it's been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
And I say it's all right
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes
Little darlin' I feel the ice is slowly meltin'
Little darlin' it seems like years since it's been clear
Here come the sun, here comes the sun
And I say it's all right
Here come the sun, here comes the sun
It's all right, it's all right




"Holy ***, they're fucking with the sun" will be one hell of a
motivator.

Depends on the details of how its done.

Please. There are loonies who believe that the Galileo mission to
Jupiter was a secret NASA project to drop a nuke into Jupiter and casue
it to turn into a second sun.

Really? References?

Listen to the Art Bell show.

Why?

Or do a *very* basic Google search, and
you'll turn up nuts like this:
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/JUPFULLx.htm
"7/30/03: The author believes the nuclear events reported here to be
very unlikely and only remotely possible, but just as an asteroid
impact with earth is remotely possible (and widely researched and
reported on), the Jupiter impact issue deserves exposure also, because
there is compelling evidence to suggest the feasibility of at least a
temporary Jupiter ignition. Given the potential consequences of this,
serious research is warranted."

How's that working out for him as a career choice? lol.

The only thing you have succeeded in proving is that there are some
troubled people in the world. You have not succeeded in demonstrating
why I should be concerned with them or how their existence adversely
affects my project. You say very surely and loudly that people will
stop me, will object, will kill me, whatever. You have failed to
demonstrate that is the case. Fact is, I can see rather clearly how it
will all go, providing of course the technology can be made to work as
advertised. Which is the REAL show stopper.

but enough, in their tiny little
minds, to kill everyone on the planet.

That was a miscalculation

No, it was a crazy-ass *lie.* A *knife* is capable of killign every
human on the planet... at least in a weirdass hypothetical world where
everyone line sup for it.

Like they did for Reverend Jim Jones. so what?

Same bullcrap applied to the RTG issue. But
people *believe* that crap.

Yes, lots of troubled people exist in this world. You have yet to show
me why I should be concerned with them or take them into account in any
of my thoughts or planning for this. As I said, I see very clearly how
this would proceed if the technology can be made to work, and there are
no showstoppers politically - despite the existence of trouled folk who
have done stupid things.

There are people who think that
Apollo was a hoax,

They are crazy.

They exist.

I agree. That doesn't mean they'll impact the proposed project here at
all.

that the Holocaust didn't happen,

Equally so.

They exist. In annoyingly large numbers.

*** 'em. Whether they believe the holocaust happened or not has
nothing to do with what I'm discussing here. You have yet to show a
clear compelling connection.


Indicator of the abject failure of the Democratic party to lead the
nation effectively. Where are the likes of Tilden and Cleveland when
you need them?

Buried. Typically about 6 feet down.


I didn't ask where Tilden's or Cleveland's bodies are today - I asked
where the likes of Tilden and Cleveland are when you need them?

They controlled the party during the Gilded Age of massive expansion of
US industry, making of the US a world power where previsouly it was
only a regional power.

The national vote was very evenly balanced in the 1880s. Though
Republicans continued to control the White House until 1884, the
Democrats remained competitive. Very similar to the situation facing us
today. The party at that time was dominated by conservative
pro-business Bourbon Democrats led by Samuel J. Tilden and Grover
Cleveland, they had a solid base in the South and great strength in the
rural lower Midwestern United States. The very base that has eroded in
modern times giving ascendancy to the Republicans.

They controlled the House of Representatives for most of that period.
In the election of 1884, Grover Cleveland, the reforming Democratic
Governor of New York, won the Presidency. He was defeated in the
election of 1888 but was re-elected in 1892. Cleveland was the leader
of the conservative Bourbon Democrats who represented mercantile,
banking and railroad interests, opposed imperialism and overseas
expansion, fought for the gold standard, opposed bimetallism, and
crusaded against corruption and high taxes and tariffs. The Bourbon
Democrats were overthrown by William Jennings Bryan in 1896.

I'd like to see a return to the gold standard and the end of government
mperialism the rise of mercantile interests and a more just world where
resources are abundantly produced by business and shared by all in a
free and fair global market.

'fucking with the sun' would
be a mischaracterization. 'a minor structured ejection event smaller
than 99.999% of all ejecta produced by the sun but due to the sun's
huge size, will delver all the world's need for metals, whilst
eliminating the need to harm the earth with dangerous and dirty mines -

Asteroid mining would be vastly easier and incredibly less insane.

Depends on the technical details, and asteroids are covered by the OST.

So is the sun.

I understand your position. Please understand mine.

No! haha.. Because if the Sun were covered by the treaty then
resources derived from the sun would be covered by the treaty.
Sunlight is a resource derived from the sun. It is used commercially
and invidiually every day by every one of us. Its use it not regulated
by the terms of the treaty, therefore sunlight isn't covered by the
treaty. If that resource from the sun isn't covered by the treaty, why
would any other resource from the sun be covered by the treaty? Anyone
holding to your position would have to bring a suit against me in
court, show why they are the appropriate party to bring that suit,
then, and only then answer this question (and others)

Fact is, once the sample return mission was done, the rates of sample
recovery would quietly be raised to commercial levels. No one would
need know what the heck was happening on a tiny little plume 150
million miles from here.

Someone somewhere would have to be motivated to assert that the treaty
applied. And I wouldn't give them that motivation. The mere
continuation and increasing of sample return rates wouldn't provide it.


Then such an assertion would have to be backed by legal action, because
I sure as hell wouldn't accede to a mere a assertion.

Once a suit was filed I would then ask the complaining party to show
why they were the ones to bring the action, why I had to answer to them
and what authority they had so forth - before they even got to argue
their case -

Meanwhile, I would put together a PR campaign detailing the benefits I
provide to humanity and the market, and question the rights of some
bureaucrat to tortuously interfere with my business..

Privately I would get to the bottom of what is motivating this action
on a political level - and correct that wherever possible to avoid
embarassment of them losing a case against me..

In short, I wouldn't make it easy for anyone, if it should come to
that, and I would avoid it anyway, since all your objections amount to
a lot of pointless handwringing over nothing.
..

Governments most commonly use the power of eminent domain when the
acquisition of real property is necessary for the completion of public
projects such as roads, military installations, or public buildings.

Or shopping malls.

Kelo v. New London - the Supreme Court decided that a few hold-outs
could not stand in the way of 'progress'

There are far more cases than just that one.

This one is germaine to what you're talking about and shows rather
clearly that no one could easily bring an eminent domain case against a
structure that existed on and inside the sun. And if I owned the
damned thing, I sure as hell wouldn't make it easy for anyone to bring
that case - and I sure a snot ain't gonna worry about the possiblity of
that happening or let it stop me from moving forward if I can.

Since the sun is not in anyone's jurisdiction, this is not going to
happen.

You'll suddenly find that you are in somebodies juristiction.

Who's? Who would claim the sun?

Every jackass with a bureauocracy and lawyers.

What is the lega precedent? You can't stop any jackass from bringing a
lawsuit against you for ANY reason. Does it make sense to worry about
all those jackases? HELL NO! It does make sense to proceed in a
reasonable manner to to the best you can with the best technology
available and not worry about what idiots might do someday. sheez.

What is the reason? And what legal
precedent would they cite?

Heck,
what do you think woudl happen if asteroid mining were to begin?

Asteroids are a celestrial body under the terms of the OST - so those
rules would apply. The SUN is not a celestrial body under the OST...

The phrase used repeatedly in the OST is "the Moon and other celestial
bodies." This covers asteroids, planets, comets, the sun.

Article 11 paragraph 6,7 and 8 of the treaty speaks about ownership and
disposition of natural resources that may be discovered on the moon.

Principle I in the Remote Sensing Annex of the treaty speaks about
sensing the natural resources on Earth from space. Principle IV same
thing.

Appendix E, talking about the special needs of developing nations,
calls for in its Annex, in Paragraph 5 speaks of allocating financial
and technical resources in nations where space faring nations have
operating centers.


- it
isn't even mentioned - and is not covered. If it were covered, then
any product imported to earth from the sun - i.e. SUNLIGHT - would have
to be imported under the terms of the treaty.

Don;t give them ideas.

I'm not. I'm stating a legal position that a mining interest who
economically recovered pieces of the sun would take. Its up to any
adversary to make their argument. I'm merely stating my position where
I to own such an asset and intellectual property. in fact that forms
the basis of my later arguments should the earlier ones fail.

But the early argument is a sound one. Solar powersats are permitted
by the treaty - because they harvest sunlight in space. Clearly a
resource from the sun. The use of solar batteries on satellites is
permitted under the treaty. Clearly, any use of solar resources is not
covered by the treaty, therefore I would argue that the treaty doesn't
include the Sun, or any other star, as a celestial object under the
terms of the treaty.

But say despite this argument, that you are right and the right to
bring a lawsuit against my solar operations is allowed by a court of
competent jurisdiction.

Alright, so you can bring a lawsuit, and you can interfere with my
business, and you the rules that were clearly written for mining the
moon somehow apply, FINE, what is it that I own on the sun exactly that
you want me to hand over since all I have is the ability to create
transient controlled swtiching in nonlinear plasma with light? (note I
would have a number of patents on the technique and IP related, and
copyrights on software and such)

Nope, it wouldn't be easy for anyone arguing along the lines you
propose - and anyone who wanted to have me give them a piee of the sun
I controlled on the sun, would have to show what it was exactly I was
to hand over - because I wouldn't hand over the IP. Hell the plasma
that the structured laser pattern is made in changes from moment to
moment. So what are they talking about? THEY brought the suit, if
they don't know what they want or can't defend it, then that's their
problem not mine.

And if they tried to argue that I had to turn over the IP and software
- they'd have to start at the beginning all over again. Who are they
and what right do they have to tell me what to do with my software and
IP?

Sunlight has been
imported to Earth for billions of years unenumbered by the treaty and
humanity has made use of sunlight its entire tenure on Earth without
reference to this treaty. Therefore, the products of the sun, and the
body of the sun iteself is not a celestrial body covered under the
terms of the OST.

Are asteroids covered? If so, then that means meteorites as well, and
the US can't legally own one.

Claims of sovereignty are controlled. If the US claimed to own the
entire sun, that would not be allowed.

Read it - for yourself.

http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/publications/STSPACE11E.pdf

Well, asteroids are not explicitly mentioned in connection with natural
resources. Celestial bodies are mentioned with respect to soverignty
claims, ownership claims, the placement of military forces, the
placement of weapons, and so forth.

Natural resources discovered on the moon is the only thing covered in
the treaty at present. So, asteroids and planets are not explicitly
covered except by returning any part of a celestial body to Earth you
have to claim it in some sense before selling it or using it. Ditto
with making use of resources in situ - on mars for example.

There is a claims body established in the treaty, but that is to settle
competing claims between member states. Its up to each member state to
apply the treaty to its citizens activities, and if another member
state objects to the way that state is using the trreaty it is up to
the objecting state to bring action to the claims commission. The
claims commission then must investigate and make a decision, and then
all parties must either abide by that decision or bring suit to have a
hearing and show cause why the decision should not be upheld.

If I were operating in the US and someone complained in China say that
my solar operations were killing their export market for steel,
impoverishing a poor country,while enriching a rich one, and wanted to
stop me under the terms of the treaty, they would bring a complaint to
the claims commission against the US. The commission would investigate
and rule. If they ruled against me, the US would either accede to the
ruling and tell me to comply with the ruling, or object and argue
against the ruling. At some point lets say the US tells me I must
comply with the ruling. Okay, I'm going to continue to operate while
all this goes on. I'm also going to ask what it means to comply with
the ruling. And anything I don't like - I'll force the US government
to bring suit against me in a court of competent jurisdiction while
fully complying with all things I don't mind. I will then question the
right of the US government to impede the operation of a free US citizen
under the terms of the treaty. I would then question the parties
bringing the lawsuit as being the right parties. I would then question
the US interpretation of the commissisons findings. I would then
qestion the right of the US parties to interpret the findings. I would
then question the right of the commission to make its findings. I
would then question the findings themselves. I would then question the
right of the complainant to bring a complaint. and so on.

Meanwhile I would continue operating.

And I would mount a PR campaign asking America if China has the right
to use the UN to reign in its best technology - and what sort of US
government kowtows to China and the UN?

And I would quietly approach the Chinese mining interests and see if I
could cut them into a deal they can live with.

Like I said, i don't see it as being a huge ass problem - the
technology is the problem at present.

The cool thing about this process described here is that it does not
require massive amounts of people or equipment to be supported from
Earth. One launch one payload - and bam - you've got something huge on
your hands. This makes it ideally suited for early stage development
of off world resources.

The more likely answer: you're wrong.

About what?


In a law abiding society that doesn't happen. This is a law abiding
society. So, it won't happen.

<Guffaw>

When making plans one has to make reasonable assessments as to what is
likely and what is not likely. It is likely that laws will be abided
by...

What fucking planet do you live on???

Earth

and that as citizens of the US, we can count on those laws being
applied fairly. Guffaw if you like, but I truly believe this and trust
this.


Wow. I can't wait until you get mugged.

??? You are confusing orders of concern. I do not see any reason to
fear legal action from anyone that would successfully stop an operating
intelligent plume should one ever be established along the lines I
envision. So, I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over the pointless
hand-wringing that passes for analysis in your world. Should the PR
spin get too far out of hand - and should nutjobs like the ones you
mention beome security threats to our operation - then, obviously I
would take all appropriate legal action to secure the operation against
illegal activities by these crazy people.

Consider if I built an actual, honest-to-Odin nuclear
bomb in my back yard.

That is illegal in the law. So, expect folks to come knocking with
handcuffs and warrants. There is presently no law relating to mining
the sun.

And there wouldn't be, because....

Laws are made in response to things that actually happen.

Sometimes. Banning the cloning of humans happened before humans were
cloned.

Human reproductive technology has a long history of highly emotional
developments, since humans have a special emotional attachment to their
reproductive functions. Even so, before laws were passed there were
mammals that were cloned, so my point stands. In the less emotional
world of metals mining, I doubt you could get headlines, let alone
concerted legal action. Sorry. I don't buy it, and I'm not going to
worry too damn much about it.

The Earth is a celestial body and its not covered under the treaty.
The Sun ISN'T MENTIONED AT ALL! Its not covered.

It is a "celestial body." Below is a link to the full text of the
treaty. Search it for "comet." Or "asteroid." Or "planet." Or
"meteoroid." See what you find.

http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/publications/STSPACE11E.pdf

I gave the reference before you did - I read the treaty. It talks
about making claims on celestrial bodies like claiming soveriegnty -
but lesser claims, claims of using resources, cannot apply to the sun
since the use of sunlight is permitted both in space and on Earth
without recourse to the treaty. Therefore the treaty does not apply to
MY use of the sun in the way I've proposed - returning metals to my
lands for sale on Earth.

Having said all that I will say,that if I were to personaly claim
ownership of the entire Sun and decided on my own shut it down to build
the shell I describe, without taking care as to what this might do to
the good people of Earth, I would say the good people of Earth would
have grounds to object -

I would say this objection would come in the form of an easement claim
on their normal use of the sun, not imminent domain.

Furthermore, I would say that they would also claim damages should I be
so foolish as to interrupt their natural enjoyment and use of the sun.

On this basis I could be stopped and asked to restore the sun to its
former condition, and pay restitution to everyone that lost a sunny
day, and for any pracxtical losses they may have, plus damage to send a
signal to any future person that turning off the sun isn't something
the good people of Earth would like.

So, this means I won't do that. Not without taking care to make sure
that the conditions that occur on Earth and that have occurred on Earth
since the earliest days of humanity, were maintained indefintely in the
future.

HOW that is done would be up to me. But, certainly I would take care
to avoid a legitimate lawsuit from the good people of Earth and their
rightful use of the sun that they have always enjoyed since humans
first came down from trees.

Then, go here, and see if the sun is somehow excluded from the concept
of "celestial body:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_body

You are making an argument against my position. If someone brought
suit to enforce this treaty, I would not agree with this argument, nor
would I have attorneys agree with this argument, and I would argue in a
different way. As far as dictionary definitions go, each treaty has
its terms and conditions which can vary from every day usage. Terms
are defined in a well written treaty. Lacking clear definition
reasonable adversaries can argue about terms. I argue that if the sun
is a celestial body covered by the treaty, then the treaty should be
rejected on its face as tortuously interfereing with the right of the
good people of Earth to quietly enjoy and make use of the sun which
has been their right for all time before the treaty. I would ask that
the treaty be struck down and that a new treaty be written if needed,
or more reasonably ask the court to rule that the sun is not covered
under the treaty since solar resources have been used for a long time
and will likely continue to be used for a long time.

No, you won't make any progress with me that way either.

I have an easement established by a long history of use, to use
sunlight irrespective of the treaty. That means I can use the
resources of that celestial body we call the sun,regardless of any
treaty promulgated at any time. So, to the extent the treaty applies
to the sun, it is null and void by this easement - and because it is
not covered by the treaty, then ANY resource I derive from the sun, I
have rights to.

Now, if I were arguing the other side, not my case, but the other side,
I would say that everyone has the same easement rights to the enjoyment
of the sun, so anyone can establish use of it - which is fine by me -
if all they're saying is I can't shut the sun down without taking care
of making sure sunlight arrives on Earth uninterrupted. But if they
say I've got to share my technology and use of the sun, I'll point to
my patents and such - and say not till those expire son. Then, once
they expire, I'll say there's only one party that has the long decades
of experience needed to mine the sun safely, and that's me! lol.

.