Re: Barack Obama Publishes His Space Policy

Dear Fred, our physically dark and highly electrostatic dusty old moon
is not passive. Shade isn't worth squat unless you're talking about
10+ meters of basalt between yourself and most everything else.

- Brad Guth



On Jan 14, 1:02 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
jacob navia <ja...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:Fred J. McCall wrote:

:>
:> :
:> :Even if you find a good cave (you have to FIND it first using
:> :robots), ...
:> :
:>
:> Because obviously all of mankind is struck blind until robots can go
:> and do that job.
:>
:
:Humans can't do that job because they can't survive in the moon for
:weeks or months until the good cave is found!
:

What makes you think it takes "weeks or months"? You never heard of
'shade'?

:
:Solar radiation and space radiation in the moon is very strong, enough
:to provoke cancers and blindness in astronauts if they live unprotected
:for weeks in a high radiation environment.
:

Cite?

Again, you never heard of 'shade'?

:
:And this facts do not go away. To *find* those protected environments
:you need to send robots because they do not need any life support and
:they are radiation hardened. And if they "die" nobody cares a lot!
:

To *find* those protected environments is pretty much dirt stupid.
Pick a convenient slope and blow it down on your habitat (for
example).

:> :
:> :... you have to construct a whole environment for humans
:> :in that place:
:> :
:>
:> And this is not hard to do if you actually jettison your ideology and
:> engage your brain.
:>
:> :
:> :o air-tight so that humans can breathe.
:> :
:>
:> Kevlar inflatable.
:>
:
:You can't inflate them anywhere!
:

Of course you can.

:
:The slightest cosmic debris and all
:humans are dead.
:

Nope. Please stop making up silly things.

:
:Please just THINK a bit instead of throwing slogans
:like that.
:

Please grow a clue and stop being an insulting ignorant ***.

:
:You have to build an underground habitat that is not affected
:by space debris and offers radiation shelter. Kevlar inflatable can be
:used *inside* those protected holes/caves but not outside.
:

Which is what I was referring to. But you're too busy not thinking to
understand that.

:
:There is the problem of the temperature delta from day (150-200 degrees
:in sun bathed places to -150 at night. (Centigrade). Your Kevlar would
:explode if left in the sun for half lunar day (around 14 earth days)
:

You assume there's no pressure regulation? You assume there's no
thermal protection? They've never heard of that advanced concept
called 'shade' where you are?

:
:> :
:> :o with enough water and food so that humans can live for a
:> : while
:> :
:>
:> Robots don't help with this. You're going to have to bring it with
:> you and recycle a lot.
:>
:
:It is obviously not only a matter of just bringing it in. You have to
:have a place underground to*store* those supplies that is thermally
:stable enough to hold water in liquid form for several months. Again,
:you can't do this in the surface because of the previously mentioned
:delta between day and night. To avoid freezing or vaporizing of water
:you need places where day/night temperatures stay within 0-100 degrees
:centigrade.
:

And this is not hard to do at all. Nor is it even required. Let it
freeze and thaw it as needed. Cover it with reflective foil. Use a
pressure vessel. Lots of answers. Your desire not to find any is
obvious.

:> :
:> :o With enough "amenities" so that they do not go crazy:
:> : showers, waste disposal, communications, fuel, solar
:> : panels, and a big ETC!
:> :
:>
:> And the robots don't help with all that, either. Again, you have to
:> bring it with you initially.
:>
:
:Yes, but then you have to install them, connect them, ensure they are
:working, test them for a while BEFORE humans arrive whose life depends
:on that equipment being functional.
:

No robots required for that.

Just how do humans settle ANYWHERE without your robots? Why, it must
be IMPOSSIBLE!!!

:> :
:> :All that must be there BEFORE the humans arrive. Or you
:> :are seriously considering sending astronauts with shovels
:> :to the moon?
:> :
:>
:> And once again your lack of intellectual integrity rears its ugly
:> head.
:>
:
:Obviously after you have found a good cave or you have blasted one with
:explosives you will need to arrange the cave, inflate the Kevlar, bring
:in the supplies, connect everything, test it, etc. And humans can't do
:it without another habitat that keeps them alive in the moon, so you
:need robots anyway.
:

Hogwash.

:
:> :
:> :How they could survive when constructing
:> :the moon base if there is no moon base yet?
:> :
:> :It is obvious that sending construction workers to the
:> :moon in temporary habitats carried at great expense from
:> :earth is so silly nobody is seriously considering that.
:> :
:>
:> That's right, nobody is, so why are you raising it as if someone is?
:>
:
:You.
:

I see. You're just an intellectually bankrupt liar with no
intellectual integrity.

:> :
:> :NASA, by the way, is not even considering a moon base
:> :at all.
:> :
:>
:> Really? From a lack of intellectual integrity to outright lying in
:> one swell 'foop'.
:>
:>http://www.world-science.net/othernews/061204_lunar-base.htm
:>
:
:That document speaks about... 2024!!
:

Well, nobody is talking about doing this next Tuesday, you know.

Where are all your robots, their funding, their development schedules,
proof of concept....

:
:> :
:> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :Radio delay to the moon is just 1 second, short enough to make
:> :> :very easy driving a robot there.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Not so much, no. Try walking across the room and examining objects
:> :> doing a 'step-look' sequence of a second for each one. See how long
:> :> just exploring the room takes.
:> :>
:> :
:> :You get used to it in 1-2 hours practice.
:> :
:>
:> It's not a matter of 'getting used to it'. It's a matter of 'you have
:> to move really slow because *** happens in much less than a second
:> and you can miss a lot otherwise'.
:>
:
:Yeah, I would not recommend robot races. But a speed of 6-10 Km:hour is
:enough to get everything done.
:

And that's faster than we could do it with people right there in the
driver's seat.

That is *WAY* too fast to do it with robots.

:
:> :
:> :You just want to send people there, ...
:> :
:>
:> Quite right, I do. If that's not the plan, why learn about the place?
:>
:> :
:> :... and there is a lot of profit
:> :to be made (not by you of course) in doing that, that is
:> :why sending humans is proposed by certain people.
:> :
:>
:> And your profit motive is what, precisely?
:>
:> Sauce for the goose and all that, after all...
:>
:> :
:> :Personally, I do not give a dam about some guys jumping around
:> :in the moon. I am interested in exploration and science.
:> :
:>
:> Well, no, you aren't. You're against people going (exploration).
:>
:> :
:> :I know, that is very old fashioned and not so "gee-whiz".
:> :But, as said, I do not care about people getting disappointed.
:> :
:>
:> You know, they used to say "no bucks, no Buck Rogers". Each new
:> generation of idiots like you needs to learn that the converse also
:> applies - "No Buck Rogers, no bucks."
:>
:> I hope you're very, very wealthy and can fund what you want on your
:> own, because if people aren't going you're going to find getting tax
:> money to do it is pretty much a non-starter.
:>
:
:Europe is pursuing robotic exploration without any investments in
:human exploration besides the ISS.
:
:ESA has now robots in
:o Mars with Mars express
:o Venus with Venus express
:o Saturn with Cassini/Huygens (with NASA)
:o Mercury mission planned for 2013
:o Moon missions with several automatic probes
:
:This demonstrates that you can build a space program based exclusively
:on robots.
:

Sure you can, BUT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO?

:
:>
:> Learn some history...
:>
:
:There is no history here.
:

Of course there is. Go look it up. EVERY time the manned space
budget is cut the unmanned space budget takes bigger cuts.

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

.