Re: Global wireless hotspot

Wallace Wright <wwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

:On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 03:05:35PM -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> Wallace Wright <wwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:>
:> :On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 08:44:49PM -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> Wallace Wright <wwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 07:37:19AM -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> :> Wallace Wright <wwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :I think I know what you're saying, and maybe it's true for some people, but
:> :> :> :there is progress ongoing in these fields as can be seen in the literature.
:> :> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> There is always 'progress', but that doesn't necessarily mean much.
:> :> :> Twenty years ago there was lots of talk about how AI was finally
:> :> :> mature and taking off in applications all over the place. It didn't
:> :> :> happen.
:> :> :
:> :> :Step back from that exponential curve a bit and the 'delay', so to speak,
:> :> :will dissapear in the noise.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Compare that 'delay' to the history of computers and it is
:> :> significant.
:> :
:> :This becomes a matter of opinion; we're better at backwards chaining from
:> :sparse initial conditions, and even though the expectations we had of AI in
:> :the Seventies were overly optimistic, that is still only fifty to one
:> :hundred years from the beginning of mechanized computing. If the delay
:> :approaches a figure significant to the scale of human time-keeping, that
:> :really shouldn't matter much except to those who have a pathological
:> :anthro-centric view of the world.
:> :
:>
:> It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. We've been
:> hearing for the last several decades that "this year is the year of
:> AI". It never is.
:>
:> Several decades is an appreciable part of the history of computing.
:>
:> AI proponents need to stop crying wolf. Nobody believes it anymore.
:
:I think you are mistaken, but I really don't have the free time to build a
:reasonably thorough argument on this topic, it's not relly my field. Past
:performance is no guarantee of future performance? That should be a
:good-enough metric to dissuade most people from making blanket statments
:concerning the impossibility of AI.
:

Nobody is saying it's "impossible". Those of us with sense are just
greeting proclamations of how a human-capable AI is 'right around the
corner' with a certain amount of skepticism.

:> :> Jesus, man, it's only Usenet!
:> :>
:> :
:> :Then this is also just another matter of opinion. While many or most
:> :Usenet groups are clearly intended to fill the need of recreational
:> :discussions, there are still many serious fields represented in various
:> :newsgroups. In my admittedly limited experience I have yet to encounter
:> :more than a few discussions where the subject matter at issue is treated
:> :with the same care and attention that is seen in serious publications. I
:> :am not advocating that Usenet should be turned into a space where
:> :journal-quality articles are the price of admission, but it is siginficant
:> :that there is so much resistence and disruption within groups where serious
:> :discussion could occur. The trolls seem just a little too aggressive, a
:> :little too dilligent in their efforts to spoil these public spaces to be
:> :explained away as the natural result of adult men and women interacting
:> :while unsupervised.
:> :
:> :I have come to the conclusion that there are organized disruptive forces at
:> :work on the Internet who view it as something of a conquest or as a threat
:> :to their politics. Hence the attacks that limit it's usefulness.
:> :
:>
:> I think that's just paranoia. It's not 'organized'. It's just too
:> many adolescent vandals with access. Couple that with various loons
:> posting idiocy because it's the only way they can convince themselves
:> they matter and you've got Usenet today.
:
:You're entitled to think it is only paranoia if you wish. I disagree, and
:with good reason.
:

Oh? And who do you postulate is behind this "organized group"?

:> More and more, people who actually know anything bail. I remember
:> when you could go to a computer language group and talk to the people
:> who actually invented the language. These days you probably can't
:> find people posting who have a clue about the language (I haven't
:> looked).
:
:There is no question that children and rank newbies cause a lot of trouble
:on Usenet. I have looked into this and learned of the phenomenon known as
:"The Endless September", which apparenlty refers to the perennial influx of
:college student freshmen that used to occur prior to the advent of the
:public-access Internet. This is clearly still a problem, but again I
:contend that I have witnessed 'teams' of disruptors at work. There are
:signature characteristics to their behavior, not the least of which is an
:operational assumption that their behavior is normal, implicit to the frame
:of the content, and which is deliberately off-limits to rational discussion.
:

People with a vandal mentality require no 'teams'. It's just how they
are.

:In addition, given the paranoid political landscape of the day, I cannot
:see how you are able to discount the possibility out of hand.
:

Because I can't see anyone bothering. It's been all downhill since it
went from being Usenet News to being just part of Google Groups.

:> :> No, I meant why would anyone base ANYTHING on what they read on
:> :> Usenet?
:> :>
:> :
:> :There's no law sayin they should, but I can see no compelling reason why
:> :anyone _should not_ take arbitrary information from Usenet as the basis for
:> :further thought or action. Obviously one should avoid utter garbage, but
:> :people do that as a matter of course elsewhere in their lives so why should
:> :Usenet be different?
:> :
:>
:> Get back to me when you've got a couple of decades experience with it,
:> as I have. That used to be one of the pieces of advice given to
:> people in the 'newby files' that were required reading before you were
:> allowed to post - "It's only Usenet".
:>
:> We used to joke about "death of Usenet predicted". Comparing prior
:> history to the last several years, I don't think it's a joke anymore.
:
:Perhaps I should read more about the earlier period of Usenet.
:
:Nevertheless, I have some practical experience in the field of computer
:security the psychology of the intruder. What I have seen in places on
:Usenet is consistent with my experience elsewhere, and that leads me to
:conclude that there are ongoing denial-of-service attacks being undertaken
:by well-funded and well-organized groups today. So-called sporge attacks
:are the least of it.
:
:Perhaps you are like some of my clients and reluctant to acknowledge the
:scope of the problem because it is embarassing, although for that you would
:have to be involved in the infrastructure side of Internet operations.
:

Again, no vast 'organization' or 'funding' is required. Junking up
Usenet and 'shocking the grown-ups' is easy. Lots of the younger set
are natural vandals these days.

:
:What is it that you do for a living, if I may ask?
:

I'm a Principal Engineer with a Fortune 100 company. I specialize in
design and implementation of software systems. Been at it for some 25
years or so (and yes, I'm still pretty much current).


--
"Yet here I sit, years of evildoing under my belt, and still a
happy camper."
-- Alan Shore, "Boston Legal"
.

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