Re: LA-4541-MS

On Apr 7, 12:27 am, BradGuth <bradg...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 6, 12:23 pm, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:





Why?

Exhaust velocity ranges from 10,000 kps to 50,000 kps.

Reaction  mechanism is aneutronic with laser initiator and D+T
multiplier.  That is no prompt or lasting radiation effects.  Just
helium nucleii at high speed.

So, to accelerate to 11.2 kps requires a mass fraction of

   u = 1 - 1/exp(Vf/Ve) = 1 - 1/exp(11.2/10,000) = 0.11%
                                 = 1 - 1/exp(11.2/50,000) = 0.02%

propellant fraction!!

Why would you stop at a space station if you're on your way to the
moon?  It doesn't make sense.

You have to get safely onto the moon.  Apparently you're the only one
on Earth that has an actual fly-by-rocket lander that's proven to
work.

Grumman built one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Module

JPL Built Several
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveyor_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_1

Brad, why do we talk about the same old crap over and over and over
again - no matter where we start? Oh, I know why! YOU'RE CRAZY!
Get that Brad and there's some hope for you. Resist the ideas that
keep circulating in your brain, challenge yourself to think a new
thought.

Don't get it and it doesn't matter what you say.

It seems clear that you don't even comprehend what a lunar space
elevator is.

I know exactly what a space elevator is. Lunar Terrestrial Martian or
otherwise. Since you are pretending to superior knowledge here, tell
me. What is the MASS of the Lunar Elevator? What is it made out
of? WHERE is it made?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_space_elevator

Well lets see, Lets take the last question first.

What is it made out of?

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE IT OUT OF

Why?

Because even with reduced strength requirements the material
properties are well beyond the edge of what is known today. Carbon
nanotubes, the strongest thing we KNOW how to make - no longer than a
few mm - are not strong enough. So, the other questions are moot - or
rather unanswerable in any meaningful way since to get an engineering
solution you've got to know what you're going to make the thing out
of, and its properties.

But, even if we knew what to make it out of - unobtanium somehave
called it - you would have a very very massive object.

So, here's the deal - you use ROCKETS to send people and equipment to
the moon. Then, you use lunar resources along with other resources
that you bring from Earth with ROCKETS to make super-cables made of
unobtanium. You have a sizeable yard and industrial infrastructure on
the moon, along with thousands of workers, their families, everything
their families need to stay alive and keep from carping at one another
for being there - and that's all done with ROCKETS - then when you get
all the cables together - then what? Oh yeah, you gotta launch all
those cables OFF the moon to the Lagrange point - and don't forget the
counter-weight. Well you bring that from the asteroid belt maybe,
WITH ROCKETS - now you have a choice - you can launch all this crap
from the moon with ROCKETS or maybe by investing a little more in your
industrial base, you can install an electromagnetic or rail gun based
LAUNCHER GUN. To shoot stuff to L1 from the lunar surface. Of course
people can't ride the gun, so they need to use ROCKETS.

Are you beginning to get the picture bub?

Alright you've done all this. Now what?

Yeah, you're going to use it.

How are you going to use it?

Well, stuff arrives at L1 and you lower it down the cable of
unobtainium. Great! How does it get there? ION ROCKETS. From
where? Earth orbit. How does the stuff get to Earth orbit?
ROCKETS bring it there.

You got stuff you wanna send from the moon to Earth or Mars? Great!
Bring it up the cable. What do you do when it gets there? You put it
on an ION ROCKET and fly off to Mars or Earth.

GET THE PICTURE BRAD?

You're not eliminating rockets. You NEED ROCKETS to make the whole
thing fly.

This is something you MIGHT do if your ROCKETS are not that efficient
- high thrust and high specific impulse - but we already know NUCLEAR
PULSE ROCKETS already solve this problem. So why not work on those?
That's the point of this thread Brad. A point you want to bury in
anti-semitic cinspiratorial bullshit.

Actually, Brad, what you're doing iwhen you put a REQUIREMENT for an
L1 Luinar Space Elevator into your plan for solar system development,
you're adding substantially to the cost and delaying substantially the
time, when you can do anything major. You run the risk of total
derailment by never finding unobtainium in the first place.

In fact, a prudent person, company, or congress, will say, get us
unobtainum first, and then we might fund your program for space
colonization?

Of course, anyone who finds unobtainium will likely do so under a
government contract, and since it is so strong and lightweight - it
will have immeiate military uses - say as a containment for a really
tiny high pressure nuclear weapon - and will be classified.

So, it puts all the cards in the hands of those who want to have them.

Who are they? Not the poor honest hardworking people you dis every
day.

The people are are hired to protect us from missile proliferatoin.


See?

What you are proposing is PRECISELY the thing that will KILL realistic
space development by focusing on anything but the IMPROVEMENT OF
ROCKETS!!!

Now, why would anyone want to do this?

ROCKETS ARE A CONTROLLED DEVICE! There are a series of laws that
prohibit the proliferatoin of missiles and missile technologies.
That's ROCKETS bub. And that means there are a group of people out
there organize to delay, defer, disrupt or otherwise make a bad day of
any ROCKETMAN that doesn't fall into line. Look at Gerald Bull - and
all he was doing was helping someone improving his missile nose cones
- and building an orbital cannon. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull

Other disruptive activities to derail the widespread use and
appreciation of missile technologies includes creating and circulating
stories that make the non military use of rockets a far off dream
rather than a present day reality. It includes people like you Brad
hapring on precisely the things you do..

Lunar escape velocity is 2.4 kps - so, you don't need to stop going
the other way either.

You mean 2.4 km/s,

That's all you got? NOTATIONAL DIFFERENCES! lol You *are* grasping
at straws! lol.

which also means you don't really know a damn thing

No it doesn't.

about utilizing the moon's L1 for getting whatever efficiently to/from
the moon or from/to Earth.

Brad, I know this, you need a freakin' tether of unobtainium strung
between a counterweight and the lunar surface to get any advantage.
Without iunobtainium without the counter weight without the tether,
the location of L1 is just a point in space. With all those things,
you can use ION ROCKETS to gently push things around cislunar space
with very little propellant which reduces the mass your Earth bound
ROCKET needs to ferry up to orbit.

But those tethers are MASSIVE. Those counter-weights are MASSIVE.
MORE MASSIVE THAN THE PROPELLANT A FLEET OF CHEMICAL ROCKETS USE IN
SEVERAL LIFETIMES.

So where's the advantage?

Oh yeah, it gets people away from making realistic near-term
improvements in rockets TODAY and pushes everything out to the DISTANT
FUTURE and makes the whole thing depend on UNOBTAINIUM in a way that
if it ever is found, can be made CLASSIFIED AND CONTROLLED.

Good job Brad, job well done.

Just a nice 3 hour 1 gee jaunt between Earth and Moon.  Earth and Mars
connections at one gee between 2 and 4 days - depending on the time of
year.

Communications satellites, power transmission satellites, observation
satellites - those all make sense.  Shipping centers - with this kind
of propulsion?  Not so much.

Whatever you say.

Yeah, I feel the love! lol.

It makes sense, Brad, not becuase I say it but for sound technical
reasons.

You can put stuff there and it will stay there with very little
propellant usage.

Its also stationary relative to the surface of the moon. So, that
means people on the moon can look to that point and it won't shift in
the sky - just like GEO satellites on Earth. L2 has a similar
advantage.

Show me a piece of unobtainium you can fabricate into a tether 10,000
km long - and I will buy it at a very good price. Why? Because I'll
use it to reinforce a high pressure hydrogen pipeline system I want to
build.

Then we can talk.

But obviously, well before we have unobtainium and tethers in space
(which we will) we will have clean nuclear pulse spaceships flying
around the solar system at one or mroe gees with specific impulses 10x
higher than the best ion rocket.

The more money we spend dreaming about tethers the less money and
talent we have doing the realistic practical near term work of making
miniature laser sparke fusion bomblets whose plasma pulse is
controlled to produce a highly efficient rocket that has high specific
impulse and high thrust at the same time.




.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: LA-4541-MS
    ... You have to get safely onto the moon. ... Brad, why do we talk about the same old crap over and over and over ... here's the deal - you use ROCKETS to send people and equipment to ... derailment by never finding unobtainium in the first place. ...
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  • Re: Lunar Space Elevator simply isnt for everyone
    ... object to about 7 km/sec. ... Speedwise, LL points and the moon, and mars, are all very close; ... To travel to LL1 on a minimum energy orbit requires 10.7 km/sec ... if you use very capable of rockets - ones with very high ...
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  • Re: No moon soon?
    ... past four years designing new rockets for NASA's Constellation ... is not authorized to speak on behalf of NASA or the review panel, ... crew capsule to take astronauts to the moon and eventually Mars. ... Ares I to take crew to the space station and low-Earth orbit, ...
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  • Re: Nuclear rockets.
    ... The orbital velocity of the moon is 1.75 km/sec ... another 1.75 km/sec to a payload sent from Moon to Earth. ... rockets is needlessly creating roadblocks. ... and the robot staff hired along with the rocket ...
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