Re: Mars Viewmaster

On Apr 7, 6:17 pm, Totorkon <aertr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 7, 12:37 am, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:



On Apr 6, 3:51 pm, Totorkon <aertr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Apr 6, 5:12 am, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Why would we want to explore Mars?

Because it has water, weather, the possibility of life and a geologic
history extending back to the formation of the solar system.

Why is that important? BECAUSE these are useful for eventual
settlement.

As a preamble to its eventual settlement and development. Duh!

Why would we want to do that?

To expand the resources available to industrial humanity beyond what's
available here on Earth.

Why Mars?

Because all the elements are there for survival - its a stepping stone
to other worlds - 120,000 of them circling the Sun in the asteroid
belt, and the Kuiper Belt.

The gravity well of mars makes it more of a pothole than a pitstop on
road to utilizing the resources of the asteroids.

Depends on the details.

Lets compare Ceres and Mars

Since the humanity presently resides on Earth, 'utilizing the
resources of the asteroids' means using interplanetary resources to
improve life on Earth in a meaningful way, and that means you've got
to send people and equipment to the resource and support them there
while the develop it, and then bring the resources back to Earth.

So,

To get from Earth to Mars means you've got to project stuff from Earth
with a speed of 12.1 km/sec - and use aerobraking to land..

To send stuff back from Mars means you've got to project stuff from
Mars to Earth with a speed of 5.3 km/sec and use aerobraking to land..

And we have a technology that we KNOW makes propellant and breatheable
oxygen from Mars' atmosphere of CO2. So, we don't need as many
supplies.

Now,

To get from Earth to Ceres means that you've got to project stuff from
Earth with a speed of 15 km/sec - and use rockets to ad another 3 km/
sec to 'land'

To send stuff back from ceres means you've got to project stuff from
Ceres to earth with a spee of 7 km/sec and use aerobraking to land.

We don't know precisely the conditions on Ceres, and cannot know for
sure how to structure things to take advantage of the resources there.

OBVIOUSLY - Mars is an easier nut to crack (both are hard) - and for
that reason MARS WILL BE DONE FIRST.

So, no matter whether you're coming or going - Mars is ahead of all
other bodies in the solar system - VERY NEARLY THE SAME AS THE MOON.

To get to Mars and back requires 12.1 + 5.3 km/sec = 17.4 km/sec
To get to the Moon and back requires 10.8 + 4.8 km/sec = 15.6 km/sec

In fact using Zubrin's idea of 'living off the land like Lewis &
Clarke" we can build an upper stage that is capable of 5.3 km/sec and
use it for BOTH Lunar and Mars exploration - check it out;

Project a stage to 6.8 km/sec with a booster, - and fire off toward a
Mars trajectory. Land on Mars with aerobraking, refuel on Mars, and
come back.

Project a stage to 10.3 km/sec - and fire off toward Lunar
trajectory. Land on the moon with rockets, take off from the moon
with rockets.

You need a bigger booster to go to the Moon than you do to go to Mars
with this setup.

Mars is easy to get to, there are resources there, that's why vonBraun
wanted to go to Mars first. Its the first step in our development of
the solar system.

,

Sabatier Reactors have been built and operated in space.

Please site source.

Nuclear Reactors have been built andoperated in space.

Only thermal electric generators have been used, and none have been
built there.

You are engaging in word games,to make yourself seem right by making
me seem wrong.. Might I suggest that neither of us are wrong, as all
nuclear systems - whether reactors or RTGs are examples of thermal
electric systems - and all systems that have operated in space have
been built on earth.

Your statements are quite accurate and do not conflict with my
statements which are also accurate. Why you phrase them in such a
way as to make it seem mine are not accurate - is at present unknown
to me..

The five ton entry for the nuclear reactor includes all the hardware
it drives, including the rover and chemical plant.

The nuclear reactor would be placed a kilometer away from all other
operations.

Is that the exact distance? Do you have a reference? Again, I have
no quibble with the accuracy of what you say, only asking what's the
point? I already mentione the rover.. Obviously, since the
unsheilded or lightly sheilded reactor would put out a substantial
amount of radiation, it would be separated from the ship before it was
powered up.

A 12,000 sq ft umbrella? How does that work? It doesn't!

Pound it in the ground? How on an unpiloted ship? You're not
thinking clearly.

The reflectors would be no more than a couple of meters in diameter

That means to collect enough power you'd need lots of them. What are
their unit weights? What is the total weight?
.

On mars, the 0.38 g, small force of the wind and lack of rain or
snowfall might make this alternative advantagous.

These are true, what's the point? I never said that wind or snow or
rain was a problem. Again, you're engaging in word games to make
yourself seem right even while avoid rationally discussing the issues
of total mass, and ease of use.

for pounding probes into the ground isn't far fetched.

I didn't say it was. I only asked, without humans around, how would
that get done? You have avoided the question by playing word games.

The human
equivalent is a common means of soil study on earth.

This is totally nonsensical in the context of my questoin.

Using the same
technology to set up a power source could be very practical.

How? You haven't answered how. You've only waved your hands.

Here, let me propose something - because you didn't.

You're talking about some sort of rover taking a bundle of umbrellas,
driving each of them into the ground like a stake into the ground -
and unfurling them, while being careful to make sure they're all wired
up for operation and sending power back to the ship

Clearly, that operation is far more difficult to achieve than
trundling a reactor some distance away - while unfurling a cable
behind itself. Especially when one considers the power requirements
of the rover and where that's coming from.

Although a light weight inflatable concentrator, attached to the ship
itself, would work well to reduce the mass of the system and if the
heat were used along with eletricity in a high temperature
eletrolyzer, efficiencies would be quite high in making hydogen.

Can you give an example of an existing system?

I've already said if you send me an e-mail requesting information - or
visiting my website

http://www.usoal.com

I'll send you a photo of one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The type of 100 Kw mininuke power plant meant for mars has moving
parts (turbine and pumps) that make it nearly ten times more efficient
than an rtg. While such is a necessity for a humaned mission, it is
way overkill for for robotic missions.

Mars direct has a maximum research area of roughly 1/2000th the
surface of mars. there should be atleast 100 robotic missions before
that first voice from the surface. It will be cheaper, it will
advance technology more and it will provide a cache of samples from
half the planet surface for the first inhabitants to study.

If we discovered an entire cache of those little freeze dried Martian
skeletons, so what?

Mars is still a dead, nearly frozen to the core and a rather pathetic
little planet, at best it's humanly lethal and otherwise way more
spendy than China can afford, and China can afford to invest 10 fold
as much as we can.
.. - Brad Guth
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Mars Viewmaster
    ... available here on Earth. ... road to utilizing the resources of the asteroids. ... Mars to Earth with a speed of 5.3 km/sec and use aerobraking to land... ... This project would supplement a manned mission to Mars, ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Mars Viewmaster
    ... Lets compare Ceres and Mars ... Since the humanity presently resides on Earth, ... Mars to Earth with a speed of 5.3 km/sec and use aerobraking to land.. ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: DAW 1978
    ... This Mars is based on a model that was popular in the 1970s, ... the earth hung overhead like a rotten fruit, blue with mold, crawling, ... snide comments about Occam's Razar and alchemy. ... as a sailing ship lands in the local port. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.written)
  • Re: Bigelows BA300 as a Martian spaceship?
    ... Smithsonian archives with the superior William Moon mind that knows ... cost more propellant *and* keep you in space longer. ... to a: earth escape trajectory. ... A Mars Free Return Trajectory entails boosting with enough speed to ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Rolling Thunder, was Re: Hapenny
    ... Her fame doesn't get her much but wish fulfilment and money; it doesn't affect Earth or Mars or the crisis. ... If it doesn't work, it's a dead end, but if it creates some sort of reaction, well, maybe that might save Earth. ... where the protagonist is in charge of dealing with potential immigrants to Mars. ... As we learn, her real job is to keep of the filthy degenerates who populate the xUSA and other, lesser nations from tainting her beautiful homeland with their foul touch. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.written)