Re: Mars Viewmaster

On Apr 7, 11:41 pm, BradGuth <bradg...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 7, 6:17 pm, Totorkon <aertr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Apr 7, 12:37 am, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Apr 6, 3:51 pm, Totorkon <aertr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Apr 6, 5:12 am, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Why would we want to explore Mars?

Because it has water, weather, the possibility of life and a geologic
history extending back to the formation of the solar system.

Why is that important?   BECAUSE these are useful for eventual
settlement.

As a preamble to its eventual settlement and development.  Duh!

Why would we want to do that?

To expand the resources available to industrial humanity beyond what's
available here on Earth.

Why Mars?

Because all the elements are there for survival - its a stepping stone
to other worlds - 120,000 of them circling the Sun in the asteroid
belt, and the Kuiper Belt.

The gravity well of mars makes it more of a pothole than a pitstop on
road to utilizing the resources of the asteroids.

Depends on the details.

Lets compare Ceres and Mars

Since the humanity presently resides on Earth, 'utilizing the
resources of the asteroids' means using interplanetary resources to
improve life on Earth in a meaningful way, and that means you've got
to send people and equipment to the resource and support them there
while the develop it, and then bring the resources back to Earth.

So,

To get from Earth to Mars means you've got to project stuff from Earth
with a speed of 12.1 km/sec - and use aerobraking to land..

To send stuff back from Mars means you've got to project stuff from
Mars to Earth with a speed of 5.3 km/sec and use aerobraking to land..

And we have a technology that we KNOW makes propellant and breatheable
oxygen from Mars' atmosphere of CO2.  So, we don't need as many
supplies.

Now,

To get from Earth to Ceres means that you've got to project stuff from
Earth with a speed of 15 km/sec - and use rockets to ad another 3 km/
sec to 'land'

To send stuff back from ceres means you've got to project stuff from
Ceres to earth with a spee of 7 km/sec and use aerobraking to land.

We don't know precisely the conditions on Ceres, and cannot know for
sure how to structure things to take advantage of the resources there.

OBVIOUSLY - Mars is an easier nut to crack (both are hard) - and for
that reason MARS WILL BE DONE FIRST.

So, no matter whether you're coming or going - Mars is ahead of all
other bodies in the solar system - VERY NEARLY THE SAME AS THE MOON.

To get to Mars and back requires       12.1 + 5.3 km/sec = 17.4 km/sec
To get to the Moon and back requires 10.8 + 4.8 km/sec = 15.6 km/sec

In fact using Zubrin's idea of 'living off the land like Lewis &
Clarke"  we can build an upper stage that is capable of 5.3 km/sec and
use it for BOTH Lunar and Mars exploration - check it out;

Project a stage to 6.8 km/sec with a booster, - and fire off toward a
Mars trajectory.  Land on Mars with aerobraking, refuel on Mars, and
come back.

Project a stage to 10.3 km/sec - and fire off toward Lunar
trajectory.  Land on the moon with rockets, take off from the moon
with rockets.

You need a bigger booster to go to the Moon than you do to go to Mars
with this setup.

Mars is easy to get to, there are resources there, that's why vonBraun
wanted to go to Mars first.  Its the first step in our development of
the solar system.

,

Sabatier Reactors have been built and operated in space.

Please site source.

Nuclear Reactors have been built andoperated in space.

Only thermal electric generators have been used, and none have been
built there.

You are engaging in word games,to make yourself seem right by making
me seem wrong..  Might I suggest that neither of us are wrong, as all
nuclear systems - whether reactors or RTGs are examples of thermal
electric systems - and all systems that have operated in space have
been built on earth.

Your statements are quite accurate and do not conflict with my
statements which are also accurate.   Why you phrase them in such a
way as to make it seem mine are not accurate - is at present unknown
to me..

The five ton entry for the nuclear reactor includes all the hardware
it drives, including the rover and chemical plant.

The nuclear reactor would be placed a kilometer away from all other
operations.

Is that the exact distance?   Do you have a reference?   Again, I have
no quibble with the accuracy of what you say, only asking what's the
point?  I already mentione the rover..  Obviously, since the
unsheilded or lightly sheilded reactor would put out a substantial
amount of radiation, it would be separated from the ship before it was
powered up.

A 12,000 sq ft umbrella?   How does that work?  It doesn't!

Pound it in the ground?  How on an unpiloted ship?  You're not
thinking clearly.

The reflectors would be no more than a couple of meters in diameter

That means to collect enough power you'd need lots of them.  What are
their unit weights?   What is the total weight?
.

On mars, the 0.38 g, small force of the wind and lack of rain or
snowfall might make this alternative advantagous.

These are true, what's the point?  I never said that wind or snow or
rain was a problem.  Again, you're engaging in word games to make
yourself seem right even while avoid rationally discussing the issues
of total mass, and ease of use.

for pounding probes into the ground isn't far fetched.

I didn't say it was.  I only asked, without humans around, how would
that get done?  You have avoided the question by playing word games.

The human
equivalent is a common means of soil study on earth.

This is totally nonsensical in the context of my questoin.

Using the same
technology to set up a power source could be very practical.

How?   You haven't answered how.  You've only waved your hands.

Here, let me propose something - because you didn't.

You're talking about some sort of rover taking a bundle of umbrellas,
driving each of them into the ground like a stake into the ground -
and unfurling them, while being careful to make sure they're all wired
up for operation and sending power back to the ship

Clearly, that operation is far more difficult to achieve than
trundling a reactor some distance away - while unfurling a cable
behind itself.  Especially when one considers the power requirements
of the rover and where that's coming from.

Although a light weight inflatable concentrator, attached to the ship
itself, would work well to reduce the mass of the system and if the
heat were used along with eletricity in a high temperature
eletrolyzer, efficiencies would be quite high in making hydogen.

Can you give an example of an existing system?

I've already said if you send me an e-mail requesting information - or
visiting my website

http://www.usoal.com

I'll send you a photo of one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The type of 100 Kw mininuke power plant meant for mars has moving
parts (turbine and pumps) that make it nearly ten times more efficient
than an rtg.  While such is a necessity for a humaned mission, it is
way overkill for for robotic missions.

Mars direct has a maximum research area of roughly 1/2000th the
surface of mars.  there should be atleast 100 robotic missions before
that first voice from the surface.  It will be cheaper, it will
advance technology more and it will provide a cache of samples from
half the planet surface for the first inhabitants to study.

If we discovered an entire cache of those little freeze dried Martian
skeletons, so what?

Mars is still a dead, nearly frozen to the core and a rather pathetic
little planet, at best it's humanly lethal and otherwise way more
spendy than China can afford, and China can afford to invest 10 fold
as much as we can.
. - Brad Guth

No, China WON'T afford it, if WE CAN afford it first!

As soon as Americans understand what the mystery is with
the selling out of American industry, they will find out
how easy it is for the government make money by granting
tax credits to industries that can lay off their own
employees.

If eligible manufacturers can import the same commodity
at one half the price from a foreign source, then why
can't government collect some of the loot made by the
increase in revenue from sales tax?

Unfortunately, this also has the reverse effect that
fills the jobless ranks, and sooner or later, turns every-
one into a ward of the state, at the expense of the
"selling out" of America's ability to compete in the
marketplace. In THIS scenario, the "middle income earner"
gets busted - through their own employer's swindle, that
inflates their usury against the honest man, directing more
of the "used" to the bottom of the income ladder instead of
to the top - forfeiting their rights as sovereigns - this is be-
cause there is no longer anything "special" to accomplish
in an industry that chooses not to modernize itself, and
chooses NOT a new ground that is ALREADY "fertile e-
nough", were it not for the arrogant, the greedy, and self-
absorbed populists, who are in the business of snaring,
smearing, and/or dragging down any person who is not
like themselves, or refuses to conform to their
"world agenda".

This is what our population has become infected with
- the complete banisnment of new ideas fertile enough,
given some brand exposure, to replace the swell of what
has become culturally familiar to internationalists, rather
than scientifically useful to "industrialists". Currently, the
Fed STILL limits industrial growth of the U.S. to 4 per cent.

What the Fed never considers, or are unwilling to consider,
or are not educated enough to consider, is the potential of
their own citizenry who are not dependent on anything the
Fed says or does. Besides, the markets that our own federal
government has attached itself to no longer represent a
majority of U.S. citizens NATIONALLY. Therefore, the system
presently works AGAINST the citizen, the individual, the
entrepreneur, and the sovereign at a NATIONAL LEVEL.

Patent approvals for demonsratable ideas are not fast
enough or cheap enough to even make it to brand expo-
sure, let alone some level of integrity with peer recog-
nition or approval, because "business method patents"
swamp their progress. The peers themselves need to
be protected against the powers that work against the
mass production of revolutionary patents. The financial
institutions themselves need to be revolutionized in their
lending practices. If the old system is unwilling to change,
then they must get out of the way for newer technology
to move forward.

The "space age" is the vehicle that can deliver the U.S.
from the current problems with our increasing energy needs.
Even if the public remains unwilling, or does not "believe"
in the resources that space exploration has to offer, then
they will have to forfeit their own ingenuity in the market-
place to the ingenuity that reinvents the market.

Notice that not one single market needs to move in the
direction of space exploration, until some particular ex-
ploration is able to recieve its funding.

The mining of asteroids, particularly metals & precious metals
should, at first, hinge on cheaper earth-to-orbit technology,
and be all-inclusive of ANY exploration done within the Venus-
Earth-Mars system, AND CONTINGENT UPON PRECIOUS
METALS being used to supplement the cost of the project,
so that the overall project does not affect the outcome of
those who wish to remain being "disconnected" from the
enterprise. Those with a "vested interest" have at least
some good faith prospect for continuing to pursue develop-
ment in order to achieve a return on their "scientifically
intuitive" investment.

That is the main thrust WHY the prospect of asteroid mining
seems so attractive - it offers us some real monetary payback
- just like the California gold rush of 1848 - 1855, but
THIS TIME, it's a bit more like an exact science:

http://home.comcast.net/~samuel_ransom/Modeling_a_Regolith_Handling_System.htm

In addition to the link above, a design and component listing
has already been completed for a regolith cannister
handling system, which will accept 2' diameter cannisters
for autostorage and retrieval. The regolith refining opera-
tion can be performed either on-site or shipped to a remote
location by freighter.

The proposed operation has the capability of processing near-
ly 20 tons of 'accepted regolith' per day, refining either
platinum, gold, or silver by % total volume of cannister,
dependent upon the sensitivity of the gamma detector and
concentration of metal in the compounds.

This project would supplement a manned mission to Mars,
AFTER A MINING MISSION, in order to drive the funding that
a Mars mission would definitely require, EVEN BEING
OUTSIDE of the public interest, but definitely "marketed"
with the potential of achieving enormous success.


American
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Novas Astrospies
    ... With unlimited amounts of money you could land manned expeditions all over Mars; but we don't have unlimited amounts of money. ... The answer is likely a whole hell of a lot more than sending a manned expedition there to bring back samples to labs on Earth. ... That's less than the cost of one Shuttle mission, and I'd say we certainly got our money's worth. ...
    (sci.space.history)
  • Re: Mars Viewmaster
    ... available here on Earth. ... road to utilizing the resources of the asteroids. ... Mars to Earth with a speed of 5.3 km/sec and use aerobraking to land.. ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Mars Viewmaster
    ... available here on Earth. ... road to utilizing the resources of the asteroids. ... Mars to Earth with a speed of 5.3 km/sec and use aerobraking to land... ... This project would supplement a manned mission to Mars, ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: DAW 1978
    ... This Mars is based on a model that was popular in the 1970s, ... the earth hung overhead like a rotten fruit, blue with mold, crawling, ... snide comments about Occam's Razar and alchemy. ... as a sailing ship lands in the local port. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.written)
  • Re: Bigelows BA300 as a Martian spaceship?
    ... Smithsonian archives with the superior William Moon mind that knows ... cost more propellant *and* keep you in space longer. ... to a: earth escape trajectory. ... A Mars Free Return Trajectory entails boosting with enough speed to ...
    (sci.space.policy)