Re: Why We Haven't Been to Mars Yet

On Aug 2, 11:29 am, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Jul 28, 11:13 am, Eric Chomko <pne.cho...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jul 19, 11:53 pm, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
[...]

Kennedy, who came to office on the promise of doing something to put
America ahead - was embarassed - and wanted to make good on his
promises.  He had great suspicion of the military - following the
failed Bay of Pigs invasion.

No, no! He wanted the BOP to be a pure covert invasion. Not overt, no
military. Intel only and their trainees.

The 1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion (aka Playa Girón), was an unsuccessful
attempted invasion in south-west Cuba by armed Cuban exiles, planned
and funded by the United States, in an attempt to overthrow the Cuban
government of Fidel Castro, shortly after John F. Kennedy assumed the
presidency in the US. This action accelerated a rapid deterioration in
Cuban-American relations, which was further worsened by the Cuban
Missile Crisis the following year.

The invasion is named after the Bay of Pigs, inaccurately translated
from the Spanish Bahía de Cochinos, the landing having taken place at
the beach named Playa Giron on 17 April 1961, and resulted in a
victory for the Cuban government forces several days later.

On March 17, 1960, the US administration of President Dwight D.
Eisenhower agreed to a recommendation from the CIA Central
Intelligence Agency to equip and drill Cuban exiles for action against
the new Cuban government of Fidel Castro. Eisenhower stated it was the
policy of the US government to aid anti-Castro guerrilla forces.

The CIA was initially confident it was capable of overthrowing the
Cuban government, having experience assisting in the overthrow of
other foreign governments such as the government of Iranian Prime
Minister Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953 and Guatemalan President Jacobo
Arbenz Guzmán in 1954.

Everything so far you wrote I agree with.


The original plan called for landing invasion ground forces in the
vicinity of the old colonial city of Trinidad, Cuba, in the central
province of Sancti Spiritus approximately 400 km (250 miles) south-
east of Havana, at the foothills of the Escambray Mountains. The
Trinidad site provided several options that the ground forces could
exploit during the invasion.

The CIA began to recruit and train anti-Castro forces in the Sierra
Madre on the Pacific coast of Guatemala. They were self-named Brigade
2506 (Brigada Asalto 2506), and the overall plan was code-named
Operation Zapata (aka Operation Pluto) by the CIA. CIA Director Allen
Dulles appointed Richard Mervin Bissell, Jr., one of his three aides,
as director of Operation Zapata.


Didn't George H.W. Bush own an oil company named Zapata Oil at the
time?

Wasn't Nixon involved with the original Cuba invasion plans while
being VP under Ike?

Throughout 1960, the growing ranks of Brigade 2506 trained throughout
southern Florida and at a CIA-run training base code-named JMTrax near
Retalhuleu in Guatemala for the beach landing and possible mountain
retreat. In summer 1960, an airfield (code-named JMMadd, aka Rayo
Base) was constructed near Retalhuleu, Guatemala to allow CIA-operated
Douglas C-54 transports to deliver people, supplies and arms from
Florida at night. Curtiss C-46s were also used for transport between
Retalhuleu and the CIA base code-named JMTide (aka Happy Valley), at
Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua. Gunnery and flight training of Brigade 2506
air crews was carried out by personnel from Alabama ANG (Air National
Guard), using at least six Douglas B-26 Invaders in the markings of
*** (Fuerza Aérea Guatemalteca), legitimate delivery of those to the
*** being delayed by about 6 months. A further 26 B-26s were obtained
from US military stocks, 'sanitized' to obscure their origins, and
about twenty of them were converted for offensive operations by
deletion of defensive armament, standardization of the Eight-gun nose,
addition of underwing drop tanks, rocket racks, etc.


According to Col. L. Fletcher Prouty (author and former CIA/DOD liason
at the time), we supposedly
neglected to take out all of Castro's Air Force planes in the area for
some unknown reason.

On February 17, 1961, President Kennedy asked his advisors whether the
toppling of Fidel Castro might be related to weapon shipments and if
it was possible to claim the real targets were modern fighter aircraft
and rockets that endangered America's security. At the time, Cuba's
army possessed Soviet tanks, artillery and small arms, and its air
force consisted of Douglas B-26 Invader light bombers, Hawker Sea
Furies and Lockheed T-33 jets, all remaining from the Fuerza Aerea del
Ejercito de Cuba (FAEC), the Cuban air force of the Batista regime.[8]

I believe Prouty referrred to the T-33 as not being completely wiped
out.

As Kennedy's plans evolved, critical details were changed, including a
change of landing area for Brigade 2506 to two points in Matanzas
Province, 202 km south-east of Havana on the eastern edge of the
Zapata peninsula at the Bay of Pigs. The landings would take place on
the Girón and Zapatos Larga beaches (code-named Blue Beach and Red
Beach, respectively). This change effectively cut off contact with the
rebels of the "War Against the Bandits" uprising in the Escambray
Mountains.

On 9 April 1961, Brigade 2506 personnel, ships and aircraft started
transferring from Guatemala to Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua

When plans went arwy with the covert operation the CIA thought they
could coerce JFK into making it an
overt operation. JFK did not do it and the BOP turned out to be a
debacle.

JFK did exactly what Eisenhower was planning to do - the CIA misled
the new President by claiming they had support within Cuba and that
the exiles would be greeted as liberators (sound familiar)


I don't doubt the overstated "intelligence".

Of the Brigade 2506 aircraft that were prepared on the morning of 15
April 1961, one was tasked with establishing the CIA cover story for
the invasion. The Douglas B-26B Invader used for this mission carried
false FAR markings and serial number 933, and was piloted by Mario
Zu***. Prior to departure, the engine cowling from one of the
aircraft's two engines was removed by maintenance personnel, fired
upon, then re-installed to give the appearance that the aircraft had
taken ground fire at some point during its flight.[7] Zu*** departed
from the CIA-run base at Puerto Cabezas in Nicaragua on a solo, low-
flying mission that took him over Pinar del Río, the westernmost
province of Cuba, and then north-east toward Key West, Florida. Once
across the island, Zu*** climbed steeply away from the waves of the
Florida Straits to an altitude where he would be detected by US radar
installations to the north of Cuba. At altitude and a safe distance
north of the island, Zu*** feathered the engine with the pre-
installed bullet holes in the engine cowling, radioed a mayday call
and requested immediate permission to land at Miami International
airport.[7]

I hadn't heard this before.

Mario Zu***, masquerading as "Juan Garcia", publicly claimed that
three colleagues had also defected from the FAR. That may have been
part of the deception plan to allow offensive Brigade 2506 aircraft to
divert safely to US airfields in the event of battle damage or other
emergencies. Indeed, B-26 call-sign Puma Three (crew Fernandez-Mon and
Perez) ditched fatally in the sea 30 miles north of Cuba, but its
companion aircraft reached Boca Chica Naval Air Station at Key West,
about an hour before Zu*** landed at Miami. The surviving un-named
crew of two were reported as being granted political asylum on 16
April, as was Mario Zu***, and that they were then onboard a bus
bound for Miami. It seems unlikely that the aircraft or its crew could
have returned to Puerto Cabezas in time for the 17 April operations,
during which B-26s call-sign Puma One (crew Crespo and Perez-Lorenzo)
and Puma Two (crew Piedra and Fernandez) were shot down

 The invasion of Cuba was being planned
under Eisenhower, and it was something that Kennedy was convinced at
the time not only needed to be done, but would be done cleanly and
quickly - and we would be greeted as liberators.  (sound familiar?)
When the invasion was carried out - none of the profound assurances of
the military or intelligence agencies were found to be true.  Kennedy
called Truman to the White House for a confab.   They concluded that
the CIA and Military were pro-republican - and were convinced that the
Democrats were more closely allied with Communists than with
Mainstream America - and so, they would ALWAYS propose programs that
would make the Democrats look foolish.

I think you miss the point about military vs. intel in all this.

Nope, not at all.  The CIA botched it - because they couldn't deliver
the support within Cuba that they promised - just like they couldn't
deliver the support within Iraq that they promised existed.

I don't doubt this.

After
the BOP JFK wanted to give the military
control of paramilitary operations

Nope.

Okay, now you force me to dig up the actual NSAM as proof. JFK's NSAM!

NSAM 55 - http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/NSAMs.htm
Read NSAM 56 and 57 as well.

Here is a nice write up describing NSAMs 55, 56, and 57:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/9c4be005a24dc300


and make the CIA do what they were
set up to do by Truman (i.e. be the
central focal point of all intel and funnel that INFORMATION to the
president on a daily basis). The whole

The CIA was help the USA avoid a nuclear pearl harbor in the nuclear
age.  To this end they kept nations bottled up in their own sphere of
influence and kept them at each others throats and generally supressed
free expression and democracy throughout the world - whenever that
democracy threatened US hegemony.

Sure we are the good guys in white hats, with God on our side, and the
Godless Russians and their KGB were the evil wearers of black hats.
Gimme a break!

There are elements within the CIA that view the Democratic party as
part of the 'socialist threat'

I think Hoover's FBI did more to foster the red scare business and
fuel McCarthyism than did the CIA.
Also, the CIA didn't hire right-wingers exclusively. Just don't get
caught looking too left wing...

- which Nixon exploited to get into
trouble over Watergate - and since the fall of the Soviet Union - Bush
1 and Bush 2 have viewed the US Democratic party as a threat to the
'American Way of Life' - and have not troubled themselves to worry
about using CIA info-war tactics against the American public to
maintain control by the Republican party.

Clearly government agencies should not be too left or too right to be
of any value in a balanced USA.

"plans" division of the CIA was not set up under Truman and Ike
allowed it to occur by turning a blind eye to
it until it became obvious during the Church Commitee investigation in
1974 that it had gotten out of hand
during the previous 2 decades.

You are naive in the extreme - and are blind to the actual operations
of the CIA - preferring only to read the handouts of the CIA itself as
an explanation of its role in the world.

I beg your pardon? The actual operations of the CIA differ than that
of Truman's vision of the Agency he signed into law.
Do you think that I support the actual operations more than Truman's
vision of it? Please be clear.

So, this suggests why Kennedy didn't really believe his intelligence
and military advisors following the Bay of Pigs.  He dismissed the
analysis of his military and intelligence advisors, and the advise of
Eisenhower - after that - on this subject and charted his own course.

I forget what NSAM (National Security Action Memo) it was following
the BOP, but in it JFK attempted to
strip the CIA of it plans division and provide the militray with the
power to do more covert operations.

Nope, Kennedy actually followed CIA in every detail - the invasion
force was covertly assembled not USAF or USArmy at all.

Read NSAMs 55,56 & 57 and tell what part of the "Joint Chiefs of
Staff" mantra in that makes you think "DCI" comes to mind.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/baypigs-airforce.htm

I
don't doubt that the mililtary intel people shared that with their
buddies in the CIA and that JFK's plan
basically backfired and it cost him his life as a result.

JFK's death is a separate issue.  It was a coup de'tat carried out by
Johnson at the behest of his military industry buddies.  

So when LBJ asked Hoover if anyone was shooting at him while he too
was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63; it was just a good acting job to make
him look vulnerable and less like a suspect? No having LBJ "know"
would have never worked. No doubt the perps benefitted by an LBJ
presidency and a coup does fit, but not by LBJ himself. He had no
need to know.

Kennedy was too weak for their taste in handling the cuban missile crisis (he
withdrew US missiles from Turkey) - he didn't want to support the
French in Vietnam - he organized a Peace Corps to bring true democracy
to the world - he ordered an indepth review of CIA practices and
procedures just before his death - with the idea of curtailing the
power of that agency -

Yes, yes and give it to the military!!!!!

and wanted to rely more on the UN - he wanted
to expand the space program and openly involve the Russians in a joint
effort to explore and settle the solar system - he wanted to end
racism in America and give equality to all - he wanted to end poverty
- he wanted to expand the governments role in education - assuring
college education for all - and in health care assuring adequate
health care to all - and pensions - assuring adequate retirement for
all - and he wanted to do all this in a way that would assure his
continued and continuing popularity - and he planned to continue his
efforts along these lines through his brother Robert and then
Teddy,and then his son - if need be.

Yes, a reign of Kennedys forever. Snap out of it, man!

I believe that the CIA and others felt that the Kennedy family was
directly supported by the Soviet Union - and JFK himself a mole
planted by the Soviet Union in the USA -much the same as Armand Hammer
operated as a spy for the Soviets

No proof of that directly, though he did have the East German
girlfriend.You forgot to mention the mob and THAT girlfriend as
well.Can't having JFK be the go between between the Kremlin and the
Syndicate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Hammer

Don't forget the Gore connection to MC, err, Armand Hammer.

The death of Kennedy can be proven to be a coup de-tat not by careful
analysis of the details of his death - as in the movie JFK - but
rather - the fact that his brother Robert was killed when it was clear
he would win the nomination in 1968 by another lone gunman.

Those too events, though similar, were different. Clearly Sirhan, who
is still alive, looks a lot more guilty than does a dead Oswald.

On July 18, 1969 - one day before a manned landing on the moon -

2 days. Actually, it was one day, but you have the day wrong.
Chappaquid*** was July 19, 1969 and Apollo 11 was July 20, 1969.
Wiki states the Mary Jo Kopechne died on July 18th. I guess the
incident spanned two days with the party being on July 18 and the
investigation by the police being the next day, etc. Anyway, you're
right the the timing and that of moon landing is wierd to say the
least.

Teddy
Kennedy - attending a party in celebration with Mary Jo Kopecne - Mary
Jo an aid to Robert Kennedy's failed bid at the presidency.- and
witness to Robert's death just a year before - was found drowned at
Chappiqui*** at Martha's Vineyard.- in Teddy's car - Teddy claimed to
have driven the car - after getting the keys from his Chauffer
Crimmins.  Which was weird, Teddy seldom drove himself.

The whole thing was weird and it costed Ted any hopes of winning the
White House.

Again, I find it interesting to the point of incredulity - that the
day before the moon landing - with Nixon in the White House - that
Chappiqui*** happened to Teddy THAT DAY-

Imagine the news headlines following the moon landing - had
Chappiqui*** not happened!   HE likely would have beaten Nixon in
1972 - and won re-election in 1978 - and would have carried out much
of the program of his brother - AND REVEALED THE COUP DE TAT - and;the
CIA would have many more problems than the Church committee.

Hard to say for sure.

Clearly LBJ's CIA was a lot more like Ike's CIA and both were much
different that JFK's vision for his CIA.

Nonsense.  The CIA helped orchestrate JFKs death at the behest of LBJ
and other powerful interests following the suspicion that JFK was a
Soviet mole.

Based upon your logic, JFK committed suicide and used the CIA as his
method.
Unless of course you state that Ike's CIA orchestrated JFK's death and
LBJ inherited it.
In which case you state basically the same thing that I did above:

LBJ's CIA was a lot more like Ike's CIA and both were much
different that JFK's vision for his CIA.


The Manchurian Candidate was released in 1962 - which involved the
assination of a Presidential candidate who was brainwashed.  hmm...
do you think they were preparing the American people for the 1963
assasination of JFK?   maybe.

Secret operations are hard to prove by their very nature.  YEt the
goals of secret agencies cannot be hidden - they cannot help BE what
they are.  So, one looks for patterns.   JFK was killed by a lone
gunman.  Ok.  But when RFK was killed when he ran for office the
following term - that's a pattern.  Then Teddy Kennedy is dishonored -
THE VERY DAY BEFORE HE WAS TO EMERGE VICTORIOUS following the moon
landing his brother helped bring about?  another pattern - and movies
floating the ideas in fiction form that Presidents need to be
assasinated if they're brainwashed?   a year before a president gets
assasinated?

Well, was JFK a Soviet mole or not?

These are patterns - suggesting a larger conspiracy - and suggesting
that your naive view that the President a hired hand that never spends
more than eight years in office - can control agencies committed to
secure the USA against even a rogue president - is naive.

Your view of a "larger conspiracy" is naive as it implies a string of
events on a timeline rather than a deeper politcal notion more akin to
a 3-dimensional matirx than a single line with pattern points. Don't
confuse martix with the movie either, I am comparing a straight line
(your view) to a mathmatical matrix where things cross and the
patterns you speak about exist and have existed for centuries and only
the names and places change.

Eric

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