Re: Why We Haven't Been to Mars Yet

On Aug 4, 11:36 pm, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Aug 4, 3:56 pm, Eric Chomko <pne.cho...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[...]

Didn't George H.W. Bush own an oil company named Zapata Oil at the
time?

Zapata Corporation (NYSE: ZAP) is a holding company based in
Rochester, New York and originating from an oil company started by a
group including the former United States president George H. W. Bush.
Various writers have found links between the company and the United
States Central Intelligence Agency

Zapata Off-Shore in the late 1950s and early 1960s concentrated its
business in the Caribbean, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Central
American coast.[5] The US government began to auction off mineral
rights to these areas in 1954. Drilling contracts in 1958 with the
seven large US oil producers included wells 40 miles north of Isabela,
Cuba, near the island Cay Sal. Fidel Castro overthrew Cuba's Batista
government in July 1959.

Zapata also won a contract with Kuwait. Bush was joined in Zapata by a
fellow Yale Skull and Bones member, Robert Gow, in 1962. Zapata Off-
Shore had four oil-drilling rigs operational by 1963: Scorpion (1956),
Vinegaroon (1957), Sidewinder, and (in the Persian Gulf) Nola III.

By 1964, Zapata Off-Shore had a number of subsidiaries, including:
Seacat-Zapata Offshore Company (Persian Gulf), Zapata de Mexico,
Zapata International Corporation, Zapata Mining Corporation, Zavala
Oil Company, Zapata Overseas Corporation, and a 41% share of Amata Gas
Corporation.

In 1960, Jorge Diaz Serrano of Mexico was put in touch with Bush by
Dresser. They created a new company, Perforaciones Marinas del Golfo,
aka Permargo, in conjunction with Edwin Pauley of Pan American
Petroleum, with whom Zapata had a previous offshore contract. The deal
with Pemargo is not mentioned in Zapata's annual reports. A Bush
spokesman in 1988 claimed the deal only lasted seven months, from
March to September 1960. Zapata sold Nola I to Pemargo in 1964.

Bush ran for the US Senate in 1964 and lost; he continued as president
of Zapata Off-Shore until 1966, when he sold his interest to his
business partner, Robert Gow, and ran for the US Congress. William
Stamps Farish III, age 28, joined the board in 1966.

Zapata's filing records with the US Securities and Exchange Commission
are intact for the years 1955-1959, and again from 1967 onwards.
However, records for the years 1960-1966 are missing. The commission's
records officer stated that the records were inadvertently placed in a
session file to be destroyed by a federal warehouse and that a total
of 1,000 boxes were pulped in this procedure. The destruction of
records occurred either in October 1983 (according to the records
officer) or in 1981 shortly after Bush became Vice President of the
United States (according to a record analyst with the commission,
Wison Carpenter).

Some records of those years have survived in other offices however;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bush_Sr_tip_on_JFK_1963.jpghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bush_Sr%2C_JFK_-_J_Edgar_Hoover_me...

Wasn't Nixon involved with the original Cuba invasion plans while
being VP under Ike?

Vice President Richard Nixon was devoted to the idea of opposing
Castro as early as April 1959, when Castro visited the U.S. as a guest
of the American Society of Newspaper Editors. Nixon met with Castro on
19 April 1959.  In a secret memorandum to Eisenhower following the
meeting, "If he's not a communist," said Nixon, "he certainly acts
like one."

On March 17 1960, President Eisenhower approved a CIA plan titled "A
Program of Covert Action against the Castro Regime."

The plan included:

1) the creation of a responsible and unified Cuban opposition to the
Castro regime located outside of Cuba,

2) the development of a means for mass communication to the Cuban
people as part of a powerful propaganda offensive,

3) the creation and development of a covert intelligence and action
organization within Cuba which would respond to the orders and
directions of the exile opposition, and

4) the development of a paramilitary force outside of Cuba for future
guerrilla action.

These goals were to be achieved "in such a manner as to avoid the
appearance of U.S. intervention."

Official diplomatic relations were broken on January 1961, nine months
after the plan was approved.

Throughout 1960, the growing ranks of Brigade 2506 trained throughout
southern Florida and at a CIA-run training base code-named JMTrax near
Retalhuleu in Guatemala for the beach landing and possible mountain
retreat. In summer 1960, an airfield (code-named JMMadd, aka Rayo
Base) was constructed near Retalhuleu, Guatemala to allow CIA-operated
Douglas C-54 transports to deliver people, supplies and arms from
Florida at night. Curtiss C-46s were also used for transport between
Retalhuleu and the CIA base code-named JMTide (aka Happy Valley), at
Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua. Gunnery and flight training of Brigade 2506
air crews was carried out by personnel from Alabama ANG (Air National
Guard), using at least six Douglas B-26 Invaders in the markings of
*** (Fuerza Aérea Guatemalteca), legitimate delivery of those to the
*** being delayed by about 6 months. A further 26 B-26s were obtained
from US military stocks, 'sanitized' to obscure their origins, and
about twenty of them were converted for offensive operations by
deletion of defensive armament, standardization of the Eight-gun nose,
addition of underwing drop tanks, rocket racks, etc.

According to Col. L. Fletcher Prouty (author and former CIA/DOD liason
at the time), we supposedly neglected to take out all of Castro's
Air Force planes in the area for some unknown reason.

Clearly, the CIA has the capacity if it wishes to ensnare and
discredit a President.

Or support a boob like the current one.

On February 17, 1961, President Kennedy asked his advisors whether the
toppling of Fidel Castro might be related to weapon shipments and if
it was possible to claim the real targets were modern fighter aircraft
and rockets that endangered America's security. At the time, Cuba's
army possessed Soviet tanks, artillery and small arms, and its air
force consisted of Douglas B-26 Invader light bombers, Hawker Sea
Furies and Lockheed T-33 jets, all remaining from the Fuerza Aerea del
Ejercito de Cuba (FAEC), the Cuban air force of the Batista regime.[8]

I believe Prouty referrred to the T-33 as not being completely wiped
out.

We also could have waited until their inability to get spare parts and
service done on the planes would render most of them useless in about
18 months.

As Kennedy's plans evolved, critical details were changed, including a
change of landing area for Brigade 2506 to two points in Matanzas
Province, 202 km south-east of Havana on the eastern edge of the
Zapata peninsula at the Bay of Pigs. The landings would take place on
the Girón and Zapatos Larga beaches (code-named Blue Beach and Red
Beach, respectively). This change effectively cut off contact with the
rebels of the "War Against the Bandits" uprising in the Escambray
Mountains.

On 9 April 1961, Brigade 2506 personnel, ships and aircraft started
transferring from Guatemala to Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua

When plans went arwy with the covert operation the CIA thought they
could coerce JFK into making it an
overt operation. JFK did not do it and the BOP turned out to be a
debacle.

JFK did exactly what Eisenhower was planning to do - the CIA misled
the new President by claiming they had support within Cuba and that
the exiles would be greeted as liberators (sound familiar)

I don't doubt the overstated "intelligence".

Of the Brigade 2506 aircraft that were prepared on the morning of 15
April 1961, one was tasked with establishing the CIA cover story for
the invasion. The Douglas B-26B Invader used for this mission carried
false FAR markings and serial number 933, and was piloted by Mario
Zu***. Prior to departure, the engine cowling from one of the
aircraft's two engines was removed by maintenance personnel, fired
upon, then re-installed to give the appearance that the aircraft had
taken ground fire at some point during its flight. Zu*** departed
from the CIA-run base at Puerto Cabezas in Nicaragua on a solo, low-
flying mission that took him over Pinar del Río, the westernmost
province of Cuba, and then north-east toward Key West, Florida. Once
across the island, Zu*** climbed steeply away from the waves of the
Florida Straits to an altitude where he would be detected by US radar
installations to the north of Cuba. At altitude and a safe distance
north of the island, Zu*** feathered the engine with the pre-
installed bullet holes in the engine cowling, radioed a mayday call
and requested immediate permission to land at Miami International
airport.

I hadn't heard this before.

Mario Zu***, masquerading as "Juan Garcia", publicly claimed that
three colleagues had also defected from the FAR. That may have been
part of the deception plan to allow offensive Brigade 2506 aircraft to
divert safely to US airfields in the event of battle damage or other
emergencies. Indeed, B-26 call-sign Puma Three (crew Fernandez-Mon and
Perez) ditched fatally in the sea 30 miles north of Cuba, but its
companion aircraft reached Boca Chica Naval Air Station at Key West,
about an hour before Zu*** landed at Miami. The surviving un-named
crew of two were reported as being granted political asylum on 16
April, as was Mario Zu***, and that they were then onboard a bus
bound for Miami. It seems unlikely that the aircraft or its crew could
have returned to Puerto Cabezas in time for the 17 April operations,
during which B-26s call-sign Puma One (crew Crespo and Perez-Lorenzo)
and Puma Two (crew Piedra and Fernandez) were shot down

 The invasion of Cuba was being planned
under Eisenhower, and it was something that Kennedy was convinced at
the time not only needed to be done, but would be done cleanly and
quickly - and we would be greeted as liberators.  (sound familiar?)
When the invasion was carried out - none of the profound assurances of
the military or intelligence agencies were found to be true.  Kennedy
called Truman to the White House for a confab.   They concluded that
the CIA and Military were pro-republican - and were convinced that the
Democrats were more closely allied with Communists than with
Mainstream America - and so, they would ALWAYS propose programs that
would make the Democrats look foolish.

I think you miss the point about military vs. intel in all this.

Nope, not at all.  The CIA botched it - because they couldn't deliver
the support within Cuba that they promised - just like they couldn't
deliver the support within Iraq that they promised existed.

I don't doubt this.

After
the BOP JFK wanted to give the military
control of paramilitary operations

Nope.

Okay, now you force me to dig up the actual NSAM as proof. JFK's NSAM!

NSAM 55 -http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Des...
Read NSAM 56 and 57 as well.

Alright...

NSAM 55http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset+Tree/Asset+Viewers/Image+Asset+Viewer...{7AF8627F-97CD-463D-965F-FB7E9F055C76}&type=Image

NSAM 56http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset+Tree/Asset+Viewers/Image+Asset+Viewer...{33C76439-821A-4196-8118-222DCAD3F4E3}&type=Image

NSAM 57http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset+Tree/Asset+Viewers/Image+Asset+Viewer...{00078419-93B4-466B-8793-CAE6FCD97699}&type=Image

Here is a nice write up describing NSAMs 55, 56, and 57:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/threa...

That's bull***.  Here's a fair assessment of what happened, and btw,
this includes photos of the Cuban refugees WITH Presdient Kennedy in
December 1962 - which puts to rest a lot of bull*** about them hating
him and so forth

Are you claiming the Cuban exile community mostly in Miami liked JFK?


http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/JFK+in+History/JFK+and...

What you fail to mention in your commentary is that these three NSAMs
were written on June 28, 1961 - two months AFTER the invasion!!  

That is not a failure! It is a point that states that JFK as a lesson
learned from the BOP that he no longer trusted the CIA.
He wanted all paramilitary operations handed over to the Joint Cheifs
of Staff (the Military!).

You seem to think that the timing should have been before hand. No!
JFK wroet these memos as a reaction to the failure of the
BOP. What part of THAT dont YOU get?!


The invasion had already failed.   What these NSAMs are about are Bundy,
McNamara and Kennedy's efforts to make damned fucking sure the
President, or any future President for that matter, wouldn't have his
fucking *** hanging out after committing resources and people (even
non-nationals as in this case!)

The memos were based upon lessons learned. Do you not see where the
CIA was stripped of power? Or at least that was what was attempted by
these memos?

That is, look at the dates of the invasion - look at what happened -
and look at the dates on the NSAMs - and what the President was
saying.

Yes, I know!


In the intervening two months from April to June the President was
given a lot of stories FROM the CIA and DOD explaining the 'failure'
in Cuba - and in response to that the President with HIS advisors was
laying down the law to both those groups of assholes - don't *** with
the President!


Right, but do you see where it saif "Joint Chiefs of Staff" several
times, and "paramilitary", also several times, and how paramilitary
ops were to be turned over to the JCS?!? Translation: Covert
operations going away from the CIA and shifted over to the military,
as per JFK's memos.

That's all this is.   Any effort to paint it as anything more is
ludicrous - any effort to say it had any impact on April's operations
- is also ludicrous and impossible.

Okay, so these memos get written AND Dulles, Cabell and Bissell, the
top 3 men in the CIA get replaced a few months later and you're
telling me the memos were what again? You fail to see the firing of
the top CIA officials and the memos with "JCS and paramilitary" all
over them together to paint the bigger picture.

and make the CIA do what they were
set up to do by Truman (i.e. be the
central focal point of all intel and funnel that INFORMATION to the
president on a daily basis). The whole

The CIA was help the USA avoid a nuclear pearl harbor in the nuclear
age.  To this end they kept nations bottled up in their own sphere of
influence and kept them at each others throats and generally supressed
free expression and democracy throughout the world - whenever that
democracy threatened US hegemony.

Sure we are the good guys in white hats, with God on our side, and the
Godless Russians and their KGB were the evil wearers of black hats.
Gimme a break!

People actually believed that back then - many did.

Yes, I know. My father was in Military Intelligence from 1958 - 1980
specializing in the Soviet Union. He speaks fluent Russian to this
very day.

There are elements within the CIA that view the Democratic party as
part of the 'socialist threat'

I think Hoover's FBI did more to foster the red scare business and
fuel McCarthyism than did the CIA.

McCarthy took advantage of public fears that grew ever more inflamed
from 1948 to 1950.  HUAC started with Whitaker Chambers' defection and
'outing' Alger Hiss - which some felt was an early CIA effort to
derail the UN.

To anyone who lived through it the culpability of the Russians was
obvious.  The Commies had penetrated our unions, our newspapers and
magazines, our universities, our political process, our most secret
laboratories and had vowed to take over the world by any means
necessary.  The commies quickly countered our development of nuclear
weapons with stolen information given to them by US sympathizers, and
vowed to bury us while an Iron curtain fell on Europe and 1/2 of
humanity fell to communists, even while they expanded their borders
into Korea Afghanistan Central Europe while they brain washed our
soldiers and carried out all sorts of dirty tricks against third world
nations to get them to turn Red...  .  that's the way it seemed back
in the day.  And that's what gave McCarthy his tremendous power in
1950 - which was quickly removed a few years later by a new liberal
media - Television - and the election of JFK (which many within the
CIA felt was a Communist mole on the order of Alger Hiss or Armand
Hammer)

As fellow Irishmen JFK was considered less likely to really come down
on McCarthy as they were old friends.


Check out the timeline -

1945 Defeat of Germany and Japan - with Russians as allies.

February 4-11: Yalta Conference meeting of FDR, Churchill, Stalin -
the 'Big Three'
Soviet Union has control of Eastern Europe. The Cold War Begins

May 8: VE Day - Victory in Europe. Germany surrenders to the Red Army
in Berlin

July: Potsdam Conference - Germany was officially partitioned into
four zones of occupation.

My father worked in Frankfurt babysitting the Russians that were in
the American zone from 1974-1975. I graduated from
Frankfurt American High School. By my 18th birthday I had spent 8
years in what was once called West Germany.


August 6: The United States drops atomic bomb on Hiroshima (20 kiloton
bomb 'Little Boy' kills 80,000)

August 8: Russia declares war on Japan

August 9: The United States drops atomic bomb on Nagasaki (22 kiloton
'Fat Man' kills 70,000)

August 14 : Japanese surrender End of World War II

August 15: Emperor surrender broadcast - VJ Day

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----

1946

February 9: Stalin hostile speech - communism & capitalism were
incompatible

March 5 : "Sinews of Peace" Iron Curtain Speech by Winston Churchill -
"an "iron curtain" has descended on Europe"

March 10 - Truman demands Russia leave Iran

July 1: Operation Crossroads with Test Able was the first public
demonstration of America's atomic arsenal

July 25: America's Test Baker - underwater explosion

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1947 Containment

March 12 : Truman Doctrine - Truman declares active role in Greek
Civil War

June : Marshall Plan is announced setting a precedent for helping
countries combat poverty, disease and malnutrition

September 2 - Rio Pact - U.S. meet 19 Latin American countries and
created a security zone around the hemisphere

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1948 Containment

February 25 : Communist takeover in Czechoslovakia

March 2: Truman's Loyalty Program created to catch Cold War spies

March 17: Brussels Pact organized to protect Europe from communism

June 24 : Berlin Blockade begins lasting 11 months

August 3 : Whitaker Chambers was called to testify before the House Un-
American Activities Committee (HUAC). Here he gave the names of
individuals he said were part of the underground "Ware group" in the
late 1930s, including Alger Hiss. He thus once again named Hiss as a
member of the Communist Party, but didn't yet make any accusations of
espionage. In subsequent HUAC sessions, Hiss testified and initially
denied that he knew anyone by the name of Chambers, but on seeing him
in person (and after it became clear that Chambers knew details about
Hiss's life), said that he had known Chambers under the name "George
Crosley". Chambers had published previously using the pseudonym George
Crosley. Hiss denied that he had ever been a Communist, however. Since
Chambers still presented no evidence, the committee had initially been
inclined to take the word of Hiss on the matter. However, committee
member Richard Nixon received secret information from the FBI which
had led him to pursue the issue. When it issued its report, HUAC
described Hiss's


Nixon got is information from Hoover (and the FBI) who felt HE had to
do more than that upstart agency the CIA.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
***THIS SCARED THE *** OUT OF PEOPLE****

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1949 Containment

April 4 : NATO ratified

May 12 : Berlin Blockade ends

29 August : Russia tested its first atomic bomb
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
***THIS SCARED THE *** OUT OF PEOPLE****

Soviets were aware of the atom bomb project as a result of espionage
penetration of the U.S. government and made a number of attempts to
infiltrate its operations at the University of California, Berkeley. A
number of project members—some high-profile, others lower in rank—did
voluntarily give secret information to Soviet agents, many because
they were sympathetic to Communism (or the Soviet Union's role in the
war) and did not feel the U.S. should have a monopoly on atomic
weapons.

After the war, the U.S. continued to protect its nuclear secrets, but
the Soviet Union was able to produce its own atomic weapons by 1949.
The West was shocked by the speed with which the Soviets were able to
stage their first nuclear test, "Joe 1." It was then discovered in
January 1950 that a German refugee theoretical physicist working for
the British mission in the Manhattan Project, Klaus Fuchs, had given
key documents to the Russians throughout the war. Through Fuchs'
confession, U.S. and United Kingdom intelligence agents were able to
make a case against his alleged courier, Harry Gold, who was arrested
on May 23, 1950. A former machinist at Los Alamos, Sergeant David
Greenglass confessed to having passed secret information on to the
USSR through Gold as well. Though he initially denied any involvement
by his sister, Ethel Rosenberg, he claimed that her husband, Julius,
had convinced his wife to recruit him while on a visit to him in
Albuquerque, New Mexico in 1944 and that Julius had also passed
secrets. Another accused conspirator, Morton Sobell, was on vacation
in Mexico City when both Rosenbergs were arrested

October 1 : Communist Mao Zedong takes control of China and
establishes the People's Republic of China
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
***THIS SCARED THE *** OUT OF PEOPLE****


Not really. We thought we could defeat Mao by supporting Chiang Kai
Shek.

December 1 - Chiang Kai-shek moved to Formosa and created Nationalist
government


We we more than just supported.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1950 - Turning Inward - Communists under every bed.

January 30 - Truman approved H-bomb development

February : Joe McCarthy begins Communist witch hunt and loyalty tests
(the HUAC has already been in business TWO YEARS perviously -
following allegations that US politicians and US journalists, and US
professors - were cooperating with Communists to pentrate are military
and share our military and intelligence secrets)

June 24: Korean War begins. Stalin supports North Korea who invade
South Korea equipped with Soviet weapons
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
***THIS SCARED THE *** OUT OF PEOPLE****

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1951
January 12 : Federal Civil Defense Administration established

April 11 - Truman fires MacArthur

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1952 A-bombs developed by Britain

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1953

March 17-June 4 Nuclear Arms Race atomic test series of 11 explosions
at Nevada Test Site
April 15: RAND report on the "Vulnerability of U. S. Strategic Air
Power"

July : Korean War ends

My father was in Korea at that time as an infantryman, 2nd Lt.

December 8: Ike's Atoms for Peace speech

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1954
March 1: H-bomb Castle-Bravo test
March : KGB established

CIA helps overthrow unfriendly regimes in Iran and Guatemala


Whoa! Now what history book are you quoting!? You yourself are aware
of what was done in Iran and Gautemala, right?

July : Vietnam split at 17th parallel

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1955 May : Warsaw Pact formed

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1956
June 29: USSR sent tanks into Poznan, Poland, to suppress
demonstrations by workers

September 4: USSR sent military aid to Afghanistan

October - November : Rebellion put down in Communist Hungary.

October 29: Suez Crisis began with Israeli attack led by Moshe Dayan
against Egyptian forces in the Sinai

Egypt took control of Suez Canal

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1957
August 26: Vostok rocket launched 1st ICBM
October 4 : Sputnik launched into orbit
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
***THIS SCARED THE *** OUT OF PEOPLE****

November 3: Sputnik II launched - Laika died in space

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1958
January 31: Explorer I launched

July : NASA began Mercury project using Atlas rocket

November : Khrushchev demands withdrawal of troops from Berlin

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1959

January : Cuba taken over by Fidel Castro
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
***THIS SCARED THE *** OUT OF PEOPLE****

September : Khrushchev visits United States; The Kitchen Debate

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
 1960 A-bombs developed by France

May : Soviet Union reveals that U.S. spy plane was shot down over
Soviet territory

November : John F. Kennedy elected President of USA

Also, the CIA didn't hire right-wingers exclusively. Just don't get
caught looking too left wing...

The CIA hires all sorts of people -haha- Noriega and Saddam Hussein
were on CIA payroll at some point.  That has nothing to little to do
with their goals and organizing principles.

Why hire them then? You forgot Osama bin Laden and his Muljahaden, of
which Reagan referred to as Freedom Fighters akin to the Americans
fighting the British during the Revolution.


 - which Nixon exploited to get into
trouble over Watergate -

Nixon called it when he said if Hoover were still alive this wouldn't
be a problem for him.

Yes, I agree. A guy like Deep Throat, who we now know was Mark Felt,
would not have been able to operate had Hoover been alive.

 Hoover had a dossier on everyone who was
important and could use it to bury anything.

I have read Anthony Summers book on Hoover, Bill Turner's book on
Hoover, Ovid Demaris and Cartha DeLoach's book on Hoover.

The trouble in the
modern world is that people have become desensitized to so much.  That
is why some folks believe the CIA is behind the kidnapping of truant
children and using them in sex slave trade - in order to maintain
power over key people.   I'm not saying this is true, but I am saying
it is consistent with goals and means of the agency.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/02/280183.shtmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gannon

Please note the parallels between Whitaker Chambers and Jeff Gannon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitaker_Chambers

Today the charge of 'child molester' has the same gravitas as
'communist' in the 1940s.

Except being labeled communist was a right vs. left thing and everyone
hates a child molester.


and since the fall of the Soviet Union - Bush
1 and Bush 2 have viewed the US Democratic party as a threat to the
'American Way of Life' - and have not troubled themselves to worry
about using CIA info-war tactics against the American public to
maintain control by the Republican party.

Clearly government agencies should not be too left or too right to be
of any value in a balanced USA.

Actually juding things according to 'left-right' is being held captive
by an ideological paradigm that causes people to ignore reality - at
great cost to society - due to common mode failure.  Consider the
monument building of Easter Islanders leading to their collapse - or
how easy it was for the Spanish to take over the Aztec culture
following the assasination of their leaders - again due to common mode
failure



Are you saying that Easter Island and the Aztecs went 100% right or
100% left with no sense of balance?

"plans" division of the CIA was not set up under Truman and Ike
allowed it to occur by turning a blind eye to
it until it became obvious during the Church Commitee investigation in
1974 that it had gotten out of hand
during the previous 2 decades.

You are naive in the extreme - and are blind to the actual operations
of the CIA - preferring only to read the handouts of the CIA itself as
an explanation of its role in the world.

I beg your pardon? The actual operations of the CIA differ than that
of Truman's vision of the Agency he signed into law.

Yes, you quote a handout from the very agency itself and then claim
you're not doing it?  haha...

The CIA claims to be the agency that Truman set up when that serves
their purpose. Surely you are aware that Truman never
approved of a "Plans" division.

I never said that the Agency didn't develop a Plans Division. In fact,
I stated that they did, still do, and that Truman never approved of
it. What part of all that don't you get?

Much of the organizing documents, and the legal history of the agency
and its other more secret counter-parts, is still secret - so you
acting like you're speaking with authority - is ludicrous.  

There are historical aspects that have been unclassified by various
committees (Church and Rockerfeller) that have through investigation
revealed agency misdeeds. I quote nothing from authority that hasn't
been revealed to the public. An intellience agency shouldn't be so
secretive that it hides its own corruption from a checks and balances
society that claims to be free. Nothing ludicrous about that Mr. Mook!

Secret agencies exist to maintain secrets - I serously doubt you have
penetrated any critical secrets now held by the USA - and quoting
declassified literature puts you at risk of having your belief system
managed by those releases.

Lemme see, believe Mook or read the likes of Peter Dale Scott, who has
spent countless hours doing research? Do yourself a favor and look up
Peter Dale Scott.

The only accurate way to view things is to look at the details of what
actually happened and piece together some ideas based on patterns of
activity.   As I mentioned, the history of the Kennedy's is
interesting for this reason - suggesting the agency thought of Joe
Kennedy - the father - the same way it thought of Alger Hiss following
his outing by Whitaker Chambers - Joe Jr. died, Jack was assasinated
in his first term, Robert was assasinated after he won the California
primary, Ted was discredited the day before the first moon landing
which his brother initiated.

All done by the CIA according to you?

Do you think that I support the actual operations more than Truman's
vision of it? Please be clear.

You are reading public documents about the operation of a secret
agency and taking it at face value is ludicrous.

Explain to me what you know about Truman and his personality that
makes today's CIA out to be the agency that he envisioned.
Do you know anything about Hoover? Do you know how the agency changes
or what makes it change? You do not have to know every secret detail
to know how the agency works based upon cause and effect.

The Russian/Georgia thing going on right now, do you have any clue as
to who is our ally and who is our enemy? How both are being viewed and
how the information is being manipulated? Take a guess Mook, who do we
support in the Georgia/Russia thing?

So, this suggests why Kennedy didn't really believe his intelligence
and military advisors following the Bay of Pigs.  He dismissed the
analysis of his military and intelligence advisors, and the advise of
Eisenhower - after that - on this subject and charted his own course.

I forget what NSAM (National Security Action Memo) it was following
the BOP, but in it JFK attempted to
strip the CIA of it plans division and provide the militray with the
power to do more covert operations.

Nope, Kennedy actually followed CIA in every detail - the invasion
force was covertly assembled not USAF or USArmy at all.

Read NSAMs 55,56 & 57 and tell what part of the "Joint Chiefs of
Staff" mantra in that makes you think "DCI" comes to mind.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/baypigs-airforce.htm

I
don't doubt that the mililtary intel people shared that with their
buddies in the CIA and that JFK's plan
basically backfired and it cost him his life as a result.

JFK's death is a separate issue.  It was a coup de'tat carried out by
Johnson at the behest of his military industry buddies.  

So when LBJ asked Hoover if anyone was shooting at him while he too
was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63; it was just a good acting job to make
him look vulnerable and less like a suspect? No having LBJ "know"
would have never worked. No doubt the perps benefitted by an LBJ
presidency and a coup does fit, but not by LBJ himself.  He had no
need to know.

I don't know anything about that.

Among other things...

Kennedy was too weak for their taste in handling the cuban missile crisis (he
withdrew US missiles from Turkey) - he didn't want to support the
French in Vietnam - he organized a Peace Corps to bring true democracy
to the world - he ordered an indepth review of CIA practices and
procedures just before his death - with the idea of curtailing the
power of that agency -

Yes, yes and give it to the military!!!!!

The military is given a difficult task in the modern world - and has
basically undermined any ability for this nation to generate the
political leadership that it needs.   Common mode failure.

So we need spook (covert) warfare, according to you? Make up your
mind!

and wanted to rely more on the UN - he wanted
to expand the space program and openly involve the Russians in a joint
effort to explore and settle the solar system - he wanted to end
racism in America and give equality to all - he wanted to end poverty
- he wanted to expand the governments role in education - assuring
college education for all - and in health care assuring adequate
health care to all - and pensions - assuring adequate retirement for
all - and he wanted to do all this in a way that would assure his
continued and continuing popularity - and he planned to continue his
efforts along these lines through his brother Robert and then
Teddy,and then his son - if need be.

Yes, a reign of Kennedys forever. Snap out of it, man!

That was mentioned by the Col Saunders looking character at the end of
the movie JFK.  It was a worry among the McCarthy era red fear mongers
- whether it was a real thing - is not known.

I believe that the CIA and others felt that the Kennedy family was
directly supported by the Soviet Union - and JFK himself a mole
planted by the Soviet Union in the USA -much the same as Armand Hammer
operated as a spy for the Soviets

No proof of that directly, though he did have the East German
girlfriend.You forgot to mention the mob and THAT girlfriend as
well.Can't having JFK be the go between between the Kremlin and the
Syndicate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Hammer

Don't forget the Gore connection to MC, err, Armand Hammer.

I don't knowanything about that.

Among other things...

The death of Kennedy can be proven to be a coup de-tat not by careful
analysis of the details of his death - as in the movie JFK - but
rather - the fact that his brother Robert was killed when it was clear
he would win the nomination in 1968 by another lone gunman.

Those too events, though similar, were different. Clearly Sirhan, who
is still alive, looks a lot more guilty than does a dead Oswald.

Sirhan was one of the famous subjects of MK-ULTRA experiments
according to some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA#Conspiracy_theories

Yes, I have heard that.

On July 18, 1969 - one day before a manned landing on the moon -

2 days. Actually, it was one day, but you have the day wrong.
Chappaquid*** was July 19, 1969 and Apollo 11 was July 20, 1969.
Wiki states the Mary Jo Kopechne died on July 18th. I guess the
incident spanned two days with the party being on July 18 and the
investigation by the police being the next day, etc. Anyway, you're
right the the timing and that of moon landing is wierd to say the
least.

Especially given the Kopekne and the 6 others at the 'party' managed
RFKs campaign.  These folks clearly got together to organize to
benefit from the PR bounce of the moon landing - and get ready for the
'72 presidential campaign.  The MK-ULTRA techniqes were easily capable
of exposing the Senator to drugs that would cause a complete memory
lapse and loss of control.   Again, Crimmins the chaffeur brought the
Senator there, and when Kennedy asked the driver to take him and
Kopekne away from the party, her to her hotel and he back home -  the
driver gave him the key - and he took it saying he didn't want to
break up their comraderie?   lol.   Teddy is either lying or was
drugged at that point - and Crimmins was working for the CIA or
drugged himself - in a way very similar to the way LSD and other drugs
were introduced to country clubs and so forth. I'm not saying I know
this - I'm saying that the events that happened are consistent with
this view of events - to discredit Teddy before the moon landing.

Perhaps. Look at John Edwards now. Similar type thing. Was the woman
Edwards had an affair with a plant?

Teddy
Kennedy - attending a party in celebration with Mary Jo Kopecne - Mary
Jo an aid to Robert Kennedy's failed bid at the presidency.- and
witness to Robert's death just a year before - was found drowned at
Chappiqui*** at Martha's Vineyard.- in Teddy's car - Teddy claimed to
have driven the car - after getting the keys from his Chauffer
Crimmins.  Which was weird, Teddy seldom drove himself.

The whole thing was weird and it costed Ted any hopes of winning the
White House.

Yes - which would have been the point of discrediting him.  If he had
DIED in the accident along with Mary Jo, that would have caused too
much of an outrage - JFK - '63,  RFK - '68, EMK - '69 .. no,he needed
to be discredited - and the techniques developed by MK-ULTRA assured
that.

Harder to prove or even surmise that RFK and Sirhan-Sirhan.


Again, I find it interesting to the point of incredulity - that the
day before the moon landing - with Nixon in the White House - that
Chappiqui*** happened to Teddy THAT DAY-
Imagine the news headlines following the moon landing - had
Chappiqui*** not happened!   HE likely would have beaten Nixon in
1972 - and won re-election in 1978 - and would have carried out much
of the program of his brother - AND REVEALED THE COUP DE TAT - and;the
CIA would have many more problems than the Church committee.

Hard to say for sure.

Had RFK gotten into office, depending on what the facts were
obviously.  But if there were a larger conspiracy like we're
hypothesizing here - the CIA wouldn't have survived in its present
form.

But, we cannot know for sure.  That's the nature of secret operations
- they're supposed to be that way!  The only thing is to look for a
repeating patterns that have consisten motivation.   I jokingly said
where was G. Gordon Liddy that day?  lol.

Vying for a talk radio show, maybe...

Clearly LBJ's CIA was a lot more like Ike's CIA and both were much
different that JFK's vision for his CIA.

Nonsense.  The CIA helped orchestrate JFKs death at the behest of LBJ
and other powerful interests following the suspicion that JFK was a
Soviet mole.

Based upon your logic, JFK committed suicide and used the CIA as his
method.

I didn't say that at all, and my 'logic' doesn't suggest that at all.

The point is that the CIA is supposed to work for the president within
the Executive Branch of the govt.

I doubt that the President would have thought it possible for any
agency under his control to challenge him let alone assasinate him.

Notice how all presidential tickets look very different than JFK/LBJ.


Unless of course you state that Ike's CIA orchestrated JFK's death and
LBJ inherited it.

I think it may have been likely that if there were a larger conspiracy
LBJ knew about the assasination plans well before they happened.  He
had to - to do otherwise would have introduced a weak link in their
plans.  He had to be on board or it wouldn't have gone forward -if it
was more than a lone gunman.   Why didn't he run again in '68?   Why
didn't he help Humphrey more?   Why didn't he move heaven and Earth to
investigate RFKs assasination very thoroughly?

I don't doubt that LBJ knew that there was a conspiracy, but at the
time admitting that was too much for the country to deal with on top
of JFK's death. It was much easier just having Oswald be the
scapegoat. You are aware of how the specter of an international
communist conspiracy was laid out to the new LBJ govt. to the point
where LBJ went out of his way to take the lone nut LHO bait, don't
you? There was plenty of evidence to connect LHO to a Cuban and/or a
Russian communist conspiracy to kill JFK.


In which case you state basically the same thing that I did above:

hmm..  No, the President does not control the CIA except nominally -
the CIA has been given ultimate authority over the future of this
nation - defacto power - regardless of what is written in the handouts
we can see.  Such power is hard to get back - harder to get back in a
way that's beneficial to all concerned.   As Ted Kennedy said, the CIA
has a sacred trust - the problem is even the best efforts of the best
people are subject to common mode failure - which occurs in complex
systems even when all the details are done right.

LBJ's CIA was a lot more like Ike's CIA and both were much
different that JFK's vision for his CIA.

This is where we disagree.  LBJ does not control the CIA - LBJ serves
as long as those elements that judge LBJ not to be a harm to its view
of national security deem it so.  The moment LBJ crosses the line -
he's given ample warning - and he *knows* what's next - being party to
the last assasination - if it wasn't a lone gunman.

The point is that JFK tried to do something about the CIA while
president, whereas both Ike and LBJ were hands off, laizze faire type
presidents when it came to the CIA and their wealthy friends. Do not
forget who intel's favorite fellows are in industry. Surely you have
heard of the "power elite"? Perpahs you have heard Bush refer to his
"base".

The Manchurian Candidate was released in 1962 - which involved the
assination of a Presidential candidate who was brainwashed.  hmm...
do you think they were preparing the American people for the 1963
assasination of JFK?   maybe.

Secret operations are hard to prove by their very nature.  YEt the
goals of secret agencies cannot be hidden - they cannot help BE what
they are.  So, one looks for patterns.   JFK was killed by a lone
gunman.  Ok.  But when RFK was killed when he ran for office the
following term - that's a pattern.  Then Teddy Kennedy is dishonored -
THE VERY DAY BEFORE HE WAS TO EMERGE VICTORIOUS following the moon
landing his brother helped bring about?  another pattern - and movies
floating the ideas in fiction form that Presidents need to be
assasinated if they're brainwashed?   a year before a president gets
assasinated?

Well, was JFK a Soviet mole or not?

I don't know - even if he wasn't that wouldn't stop some elements
within the intelligence community to think so.  I mean, our top
scientists passed our most sacred secrets to the Soviets, our most
trusted journalists and political leaders were Soviet moles, the
Soviets were making gains around the world

It flows both ways. We got key defectors as well. Someone once said
that a country deserves the leaders it elects. Well, countries also
deserve the traitors and defectors it gets!

- Kennedy wanted to join
with the Soviets and share with them missile secrets they wanted
desperately, caved to them on Turkey, failed to secure Cuba, had cold
feet in helping out in Vietnam, wanted to end racial differences, end
poverty - nationalize medicine, education, give college educations to
all Americans - sounded pretty pinko to some I bet.  It wouldn't take
much to believe that there were elements within the intelligence
community that developed 'evidence' that such was the case -
sufficient to 'take out' the President.

Other than Vietnam, what was so different between JFK and LBJ? I am
not talking ideals here, actual policy...
Clearly LBJ and JFK differed on Vietnam policy. What else?

Again, who knows?  The  idea is consistent however.

These are patterns - suggesting a larger conspiracy - and suggesting
that your naive view that the President a hired hand that never spends
more than eight years in office - can control agencies committed to
secure the USA against even a rogue president - is naive.

Your view of a "larger conspiracy" is naive

You're only saying that because I called your analysis naive earlier.

No read on...

as it implies a string of
events on a timeline rather than a deeper politcal notion

We cannot know what the motivation or politics are.

Bull***! They have been the same for millenia. Julius Ceasar and the
Senate. To get and to maintain power. Period.

 We can know what
happened and when and where people are.  JFK being killed by a lone
gunman - is reasonable perhaps - as an isolated incident.  JFK being
killed, followed by LBJ - a very power hungry indivdual, not seeking
relelection in 68, followed by RFK being killed in 68, followed by
Teddy Kennedy being discredited in 69 before the moon landing -
suggests a pattern of activity to keep the Kennedy's out of the white
house in the 60s and 70s.   This is consistent with the notion that
there were secrets that would come to light if the President  were a
Kennedy that some very powerful folks didn't want to come to light.

This is Deep Politics in a manner in which "conspiracy" as a notion is
naive. My point.

more akin to
a 3-dimensional matirx than a single line with pattern points.

I don't know what you mean and definitely don't know why you are
saying that.

Yep, I figured as much. Read, "Deep Politics and the Death of JFK", by
Peter Dale Scott.

Don't
confuse martix with the movie either,

??

I am comparing a straight line
(your view) to a mathmatical matrix where things cross and the
patterns you speak about exist and have existed for centuries and only
the names and places change.

I think more in terms of eigenvalues - there's an orientation where
rotational moment is maximum.

That is your spin. LOL!

Read "Deep Politics". Peter Dale Scott.

Eric
.