Re: Is it this easy to live on Mars?

On Sep 21, 4:45 pm, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Sep 21, 4:44 pm, BradGuth <bradg...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Sep 21, 12:08 pm, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Sep 21, 12:29 am, BradGuth <bradg...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 20, 4:28 pm, Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Brad,

You make a lot of statements about radiation - all of them wrong!

Living on Mars - unsheilded - exposes you to 8 millirads per day.
Living on Earth unsheilded, exposes you to 1 millirad per day.

Interplanetary travel along minimum energy orbits expose you to 22
millirads per day for 18 month periods.

I've told you elsewhere, several times, that this increases cancer
risks eqiuvalent to that of smoking, or drinking alcohol - something
lots of people do and live long healthy lives.

Yes, total radiation dose of early explorers is equal to 40 years
exposure on Earth. Yes, these will likely be older people who do not
have any indication of cancer after 40 to 60 years of life. Yes
cancer risks increase - but are not certain.

When larger number of people live on mars;

Yes, large populations will live likely run slightly higher risks of
cancer. Yes, cities will be designed with sheilding in mind to reduce
radiation levels to near Earth normal. Yes, when a couple want to get
pregnant, they will stay in a sheilded city for a year or so. Yes,
kids will have to stay there for most of their early years. Yes,
there will be rules that restrict the transport of people under the
age of 25 off world.

Obviously, these are work-arounds to limit the impact of radiation.
Clearly radiation is a factor to be considered carefully when planning
interplanetary travel and development. Plainly its not a show-stopper
you wish to make it.

I find it interesting that you say plainly wrong and bone headed
things, such as - we've never been to the moon, when we have, that the
environment on Venus is cozy and that there are aliens there, when
niether is true, meanwhile you suggest the the surface of Mars is a
radioactive wasteland incapable of supporting life, when obviously
this is not the case.

What motivates you to persist in these lies?

The regular laws of physics and best available science that can be
independently peer replicated (meaning outside of all things DARPA and
NASA). Sorry if that's not good enough.

If you want to believe that Mars offers a wussy 8 mr/day, no worries
of solar CME flack or anything worse off than a mild UV sunburn, then
so be it.

Its not what I believe it is based on measurements.

According to the “Mars Radiation Environment Experiment”,

Which operates on orbit.not the surface.

the average
dosage is often well over 22 mrad/day,

Yes, the radiation in environment on Mars orbit is nearly the same as
interplanetary space. The same source you got that figure from
clearly says this 22 mrad/day applies to interplanetary space and Mars
orbit. The same source says surface radiation levels are more than
2/5ths less - or 8 mrad/day.

and at other bad times running
better than 2.2 rad/day

Such storms can be detected in advance and a radiation storm shelter
provided. These levels are seen in interplanetary space and on orbit
around Mars. The levels ON mars is far far less, due to its
atmosphere.

(apparently that’s no big DNA survival deal,
as that’s only 100 fold worse off while on Mars,

The Mars atmosphere and the body of Mars itself reduces the impact of
this - sheilding on Mars itself using surface materials reduces even
this level.

and merely 2,200 fold
bitchier than Earth).

Those flying high altitude jets and those living in the polar regions
on Earth also suffer from massive spikes in radiation levels during
these events.

In other words, not much better than two weeks
on Mars is worth an entire year on Earth,

You are confusing and confabulating honest data in a dishonest way.
Likely because you are incapable of thinking clearly about it.

Living on Earth's surface is different than living in space, and both
are different than living on Mars' surface. Furthermore, radiation
spikes from solar flares and whatnot, causes massive spikes in
radiation in space, on Mars, and on Earth. Obviously the situation is
worst in space, better on the surface of MArs, better on Earth's
surface - but by no means safe. The same magnetic field that protects
those at the equator, increases exposure from flares to those at the
poles.

and that’s based upon hiding
your frail DNA underground whenever bursts of cosmic gamma or solar
CMEs are nailing Mars.

You are making highly judgmental statements without one iota of
fact. Yes there is a continuous low level exposure to ionizing
radiation in Space on Mars and on Earth. Yes there are spikes of
radiation in Space on Mars and on Earth due to things like solar
flares and cosmic ray bursts.

Are they show stoppers? No.
Need we be concerned? Yes
Can we take steps to mitigate exposure? Sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Radiation_Environment_Experiment

If you actually read this link you would have seen the statement,"to
characterize aspects of the radiation environment both on the way to
Mars and while it was in the Martian orbit." - levels of radiation on
the Mars surface are 2/5th as large - or 8 millirad per day which I
also quoted.

The 22 millirads - which I quoted - applies to interplanetary space
and Mars orbit. The surface is 8 millirads per day which I also
quoted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MARIEdoserates.nasa.png

Yes, this is accurate data - for interplanetary space and high Mars
orbit.

Mars will be easy for a plutonium powered android to survive upon.

Irrelevant - we're talkinga about the ease with which oxygen and water
and nitrogen may be extracted from Mars' atmosphere. You wrongly
implied that radiation was a huge issue - it is a factor - it is not a
show stopper.

Hmmmm, seems my few words of posting has been using up more than my
fair share of the Google/NOVA Usenet bandwidth, as I can’t hardly post
squat these days without being cut off at the pass, so to speak.

Gee, if only that were true - haha - seriously though - it might help
if you actually troubled yourself to actually UNDERSTAND a thing
before posting tons and tons of trash about it.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BG- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Please understand that similar radiation effects are observed on Earth

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0952-4746/21/1/003

In 1996 radiation experiments on the Concorde showed average exposures
14.1 uSv/hr. That's 1.41 millirad per hour. Higher than exposure in
interplanetary space! (33 millirad/day vs 22 millirad/day). How can
that be?

1) These are great arc routes, flown between North America and Europe,
which pass over the poles. The magnetic field that protects us at
lower latitudes, dumps radiation into the polar regions;

2) The stratosphere actually multiplies radiation effects of certain
energies of cosmic rays, through induced radiation. Think of a bullet
hitting a target and breaking up into shrapnel. Now you have lots of
deadly projectiles, not just one.

Now, people routinely, for decades flew the Concorde in this
environment.

Regular high altitude travel over the same routes expose passengers to
11 millirad/day to 22 millirad/day.

Sealevel exposure away from the poles is 1 millirad per day - as
indicate already.

Avoiding our SAA contour is not an option,

Dude! You are a freak! You seem incapable of understanding
anything you read. You realize do you not, that the South Atlantic
Anomaly is measured on orbit? And I didn't mention it AT ALL - nor
did I say we had to avoid it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VHB-45RFRY....

and those Mars rads are of
the soft X-ray instead of the hard-X-ray and gamma.

Total ionizing radiation on the surface of mars averages 8 milirads
per day - but varies over that range.

Total ionizing radiation on Earth averages 1 millirad per day - but
varies over that range - due to the effects of the van allen belt and
other effects.

btw, those Mars radiation measurements were also per cm2, or perhaps
at most per cm3.

We're looking at ionizing energy per kg of tissue per unit time.

you don't know what you're talking about - you don't know what a rad
is or millirad or sievert or micro-sievert is - so you don't know what
to do with areal or volumetric figures in this context.

Perhaps the rich and powerful that are by your interpretation so wise
and always entitled

this statement is even further removed from the reality we're talking
about.

The radiation environment on Mars and in interplanetary space is
perfectly safe for the sorts of missions we're contemplating - and the
radiation levels we expect to experience have already been
successfully experienced with Apollo and ISS and even high altitude
Concorde flights.

[snip] offensive materials related to rape and denigration of women.

Now it's you that can't do basic math. 2e3 Sv = 200,000 rads/year,
and that's after getting through 5/16" aluminum and somewhat shaded by
Earth to boot.

~ BG
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Is it this easy to live on Mars?
    ... Living on Earth unsheilded, exposes you to 1 millirad per day. ... Clearly radiation is a factor to be considered carefully when planning ... clearly says this 22 mrad/day applies to interplanetary space and Mars ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Is it this easy to live on Mars?
    ... Living on Earth unsheilded, exposes you to 1 millirad per day. ... Clearly radiation is a factor to be considered carefully when planning ... clearly says this 22 mrad/day applies to interplanetary space and Mars ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Is it this easy to live on Mars?
    ... Living on Earth unsheilded, exposes you to 1 millirad per day. ... Clearly radiation is a factor to be considered carefully when planning ... If you want to believe that Mars offers a wussy 8 mr/day, ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Is it this easy to live on Mars?
    ... Living on Earth unsheilded, exposes you to 1 millirad per day. ... Clearly radiation is a factor to be considered carefully when planning ... the radiation in environment on Mars orbit is nearly the same as ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Is it this easy to live on Mars?
    ... Technically Mars is humanly doable, as long as the public funded R&D ... Radiation levels are not a problem. ... times the exposure you get on Earth. ... animals exposed to long term low level ionizing radiation ...
    (sci.space.policy)
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