Re: Colonizing space?
- From: BradGuth <bradguth@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
Your anti-thorium, anti-h2o2, anti-Selene/moon L1 and anti most
anything else that's not your mindset idea to start with, is noted.
Good thing there's no chance in hell of you ever being in charge of
NASA, DARPA, DoE or anything else that matters. God forbid should you
even be within any related think-tank, other than as world dictator.
Your CIA World FactBook bible is more than enough reason to avoid the
bipolar mindset of Mook. Can we now assume you are a born-again
Scientology member in good standing?
~ BG
On Apr 2, 9:08 pm, willie.moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:44 pm, BradGuth <bradg...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 18, 11:56 am, willie.moo...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
Umm... ridding the world of nuclear materials and nuclear weapons
improves life on Earth.
For the most part that true, although it would be a shame not to use
our fair share of thorium for the clean energy that it can deliver.
Thorium is a minor constituent at best, and would supply very little
power - while perpetuating a system that continues at great risk to
public safety. Best to rid the world of ALL nuclear materials and
place ALL nuclear materials under international control whose only use
is space propulsion and space power - with rockets stationed on the
lunar surface, and the only nuclear research is done on the moon's
surface.
Using nuclear pulse engines built around old weapons materials to
orbit large solar power satellites that beam infrared laser energy to
users anywhere on demand, improves life on Earth, by lowering the cost
of energy, making energy more widely available and more abundant, and
ending the endless pollution of our air b ending the use of
conventional fuels.
Can't argue against that, except we don't have another century to
wait.
What makes you think it would take a century? Classified reports as
early as 1955 showed these vehicles could be built within 5 years of
the decision to do so. We could build the fleet of 200 ships each
50,000 ton payload capacity in this time frame - all that is required
is the will to do it.
Putting in place a large network of multi-point comsats to turn the
world into a global wireless hotspot, that supports billions of
biometric and VR signalling channels, does the same thing. Humanoid
robots like ASIMO work anywhere driven by workers who live anywhere -
this immediately improves life on Earth by providing meaningful and
profitable work for all.
Again, if we manage to survive the next century and you manage to pull
everything off without a hitch.
Once the rockets are available putting up the satellites is easy.
Mass producing 600 satellites over the same 5 year period is easy. At
20 tonnes each that's 12,000 tonnes - less than 1/4 the lift capacity
of a single 50,000 ton ship. The network would be put up as part of a
shakedown cruise of the first ship sometime 3 to 4 years from the
start of the project.
Capturing rich asteroids, using nuclear pulse techniques to bring them
into Earth orbit, and using nuclear pulse lifters to place significant
remotely controlled factories on them to manufacture stuff and deliver
it anwhere its needed on Earth at extremely low cost - dramatically
improves life on Earth.
Now you're talking of multiple centuries from now,
Why do you say that? It takes a nuclear pulse ship less than 90 days
to cruise to any point inside the orbit of Jupiter. Over the 5 year
period of construction and development, smaller survey ships are
built, along with sensor satellites to survey all the small bodies of
the solar system. The richest of these will have been identified and
recovery techniques worked out and ready when the first ships are
ready. A minimum energy transfer orbit from the vicinity of the
asteroid belt to Earth takes less than 7 years. So, 12 years from the
day we decide to do it, to the arrival of the asteroidal bodies is the
reasonable time to consider. Of course during that 7 year transfer
time we use the lift capacity to put up remotely operated factories
that will use the incoming asteroidal mass as feedstock so we can hit
the ground running - and with learning curve effects achieve maximum
productivity with full employment on Earth, and $100,000 per person
per year income - within 15 years of making the decision to move
ahead.
unless of course
you decide to include our Selene/moon as a viable asteroid to plunder,
The moon as already stated must be mined and is at the bottom of a
gravity well - neither apply to asteroids and other small bodies which
make them easier to mine - and so will be mined first. Beyond 15
years, the moon will be developed - and its gravity well makes it a
good repository for nuclear pulse fleet, nuclear research and
production reactiors, and nuclear industry for space power
applications and space propulsion and nuclear medicine
.
as after all it is rather big and nearby as is, even it it were
relocated to Earth L1.
Earth/Luna L1 is good for a communications satellite that's all.
Earth/Sol L1 is good for a sunshade, and a high intensity solar
collector array.
or at least within our Selene/
moon.
The moon is not particularly rich when compared to some asteroids,
riches on the moon are buried deep within the moon and must be
extracted, the moon sits at the bottom of a substantial gravity well
that without aerobraking adds significant cost to getting materials
out of the moon and back to Earth, the moon is more than 1 light
second away which means we cannot use present telerobotic techniques
as effectively as we can within 1/5th light second of Earth. The moon
will one day be a valuable resource, and one day be a vital inhabited
world, using the moon to resolve our materials issues on Earth quickly
is more problematical than asteroid capture and processing on orbit as
described above.
If you say so,
Only because it is so.
because the physics and science we have thus far
doesn't agree with your interpretation.
Yes it does. Its far easier to find, capture and transport rich
asteroids than to survey the entire moon including its interior, find
the rich bits, dig them out, drag them to the surface, and launch them
back to Earth. Its far easier to fabricate stuff on orbit by remote
control than to have populations living on the surface of the moon.
This will happen, but it will not happen before teleoperated factories
on orbit happen.
Much like Earth, our Selene/moon even has a sufficient core of
geothermal energy.
No it does not.
Again, your science
Science is science - everything I say is firmly rooted in reality.
is certainly all alone,
No I am not.
as here you don't even
agree with NASA or a dozen other interpretations.
I agree with NASA that Apollo sent brave explorers to the moon in
1960s and 70s
Too bad we still do not have a viable fly-by-rocket lander for getting
ourselves safely to/from our Selene/moon
Your boneheaded contention that the Apollo flights did not occur as
described marks you as a profoundly troubled personality.
Are you saying that we can use the William Mook fly-by-rocket lander?
No, I am saying that Apollo sent a handful of astronauts to the moon
in 1969-72
(because the R&D related to our NASA/Apollo one doesn't seem to exist)
See?
and its nifty L1.
Lagrange point 1 between Earth and Sol is more important. Lunar/Earth
L1 is a good place for a communications satellite - that's about it.
Where's that Mook imagination? (is Mook going brain-dead on us)
Rooted firmly in reality - recall we are speaking of what can be done
in the next 10 to 15 years. L1 is a comsat point nothing more.
You do realize that Clarke Station and the Boeing OASIS are each
engineered to work just perfectly fine and dandy, not to mention my
LSE-CM/ISS.
You realize that the only practical use we will make of Earth/Luna L1
in the next 10 to 15 years is a comsat point nothing more.
I guess we
can only go so far on a given cesspool of mainstream lies.
The only cesspool of lies are yours sir. You love projecting your
reality to those outside you. Fortunately, no one is fooled - except
perhaps for you.
The cold hard truths of physics and the best available science differs
with your negative and often bipolar mindset.
I have said nothing negative only pointed out the obvious.
Since there's most of everything we need on or within our Selene/moon,
what exactly are we waiting for?
Please explain in detail how you would proceed and why it would be
less expensive speedier and more reliable than what I have described?
I've already done that,
No you haven't.
and you cared less because you're stuck in
naysay mode.
You have yet to learn that someone telling you something won't work
because it won't work is not being negative. They're trying to
educate you.
My terrestrial wind energy alone puts your solar PV
farms to shame,
No they don't. Wind energy will never equal solar energy on a
fundamental basis. Wind energy is caused by differential heating of
the air by sunlight - for that reason it is never more than 1% of
sunlight. On the other hand, sunlight is already converted to energy
with over 40% efficiency.
not to mention my battery of thorium reactors.
The world is safer with no reactors whatever within its biosphere.
Solar panels and solar power satellites will allow this to happen.
To recap;
1) sign an enhanced nonproliferation treaty and put all 2,000 tons
fissile material under international control - Ends the threat of
loose nukes
2) use weapons lobs to convert bombs and materials into micro-fission
pulse triggers - keeps the weaponeers busy
3) develop nuclear pulse engines around fusion elements triggered b
small micro-fission triggers - insipres universal cooperation, unites
world in a positive vision of the future.
4) build a fleet of 200 ships each 50,000 ton capacity as
interplanetary cruisers - provides substantial capacity at less cost
than US Navy.
5) put up a communications satellite network - provide global
wireless broadband - establishes mass produced space hardware achieves
early price point and productivity needed to advance, provides
seamless means to work remotely through telerobotics.
6) put up a power satellite network - provide global wireless power -
ends our pollution of the atmosphere, lowers energy costs, and ends
energy limits to growth
7) survey the small bodies of the solar system - select the richest
of these for retrieval - expands the availability of raw materials
while reducing the impact of human industry on Earth's biosphere.
8) retrieve the richest small bodies to sun synch polar orbit - ideal
location for orbiting factories, they pass over every point on Earth
twice a day.
9) place remotely operated factories on the captured asteroids -
using materials in captured asteroid, processed into useful goods that
are then delivered directly from orbit in minutes to anyone anywhere
in response to a satellite phone call.
10) expand orbital infrastructure - build products for use IN space -
large pressure vessels to house farms, forests and eventually people -
adding food and wood and wood products to the products available from
space.
11) build large pressure vessels that are capable of floating in
Earth's atmosphere - by heating the air within. These are similar to
Buckminster Fuller's Cloud Nine cities proposed in 1962. Tens of
thousands of these cities, each housing up to 100,000 people float
through the skies of Earth- supplied with food and water and fiber and
products from Orbit - communications available to all. People work
telerobotically anywhere on Earth or Earth orbit from these cities -
the cities float to any point on Earth and pick up anyone anywhere on
request - freeing the poor and powerless from tyranny. Large pressure
vessels are also built on orbit to house people who arrive there from
Earth.
12) homes powered and supplied and connected to space based
infrastructure are landed and self-erect anywhere desired. Many have
automated well stocked green houses providing minature farms - all
have teleoperated robots that allow people to recieve all manner of
personal services in their home telerobotically. All have a
teleoperation suite that allow homeowners to work anywhere and recieve
compensation to buy goods and services from the orbiting
infrastructure. MEMs based laser powered rocket arrays - forming
propulsive skins on the surface of personal spacecraft - make the home
spaceship possible - these too are delivered to people on demand -
anywhere - allowing them to travel anywere in minutes, or travel to
orbit and back at ease.
All these things improve the quality of life on Earth - and it starts
with converting nuclear weapons into nuclear triggers for nuclear
pulse rockets of tremendous capacity.
Your nifty stuff at best is decades away
The critical part is getting all the loose nukes and converting them
to rockets - and then building the payloads for them. This may all be
done in 5 years.
As the rockets are being built, comsats and powersats are also being
built - and all are deployed by the fleet of 200 on their way to the
asteroid belt - so our energy problems and communications and labor
problems will all be resolved within 5 years of our decision to
resolve them.
Within 12 years of our decision we will have factories on orbit and
asteroids to feed them - and products will rain down from orbit
everywhere in great abundance.
The whole program outlined above will take 12 years no more.
and going to cost us
trillions.
Yes. Our global economy is presently $70 trillion per year. We have
$40 trillion in liquid assets available to us from 10.4 million
millionaires - and this investment will grow our economy to $600
trillion in 12 years. It will cost $18 trillion to implement spent
over 12 years. That's $1.5 trillion per year . At present the world
spends $1.8 trillion per year on military operations. The world
enters a mutual defense treaty and spends $0.3 trillion on mutual
defense - ends all war spending - ends organized crime - and takes the
savings and spends it on this program, and asks the private sector for
matching funds. This provides easily $36 trillion without taking
money from any other program save warfare while providing $600
trillion PER YEAR return by employing everyone more efficiently than
at present.
Our Selene/moon is right here and now,
You would do well to look at the energetics, rather than the geometry.
although so is the
rather easy access to the planet Venus.
Venus' escape velocity equals that of Earth. Its surface conditions
are intolerable, and finding rich bits to exploit is nigh impossible
under those conditions, as well as exploiting them. Venus I have no
doubt will one day be developed. It will not be complted in 15 years
as asteroid capture and development is.
Your terrestrial solutions are certainly going against Big Energy, so
much so that they'll never happen until long after you're dead.
Big energy is already dead, they don't know it yet.
However, one or two out of the above 12 should work, and that's still
better than most.
You have no basis to make any statements like that.
Your original green hydrogen economy is certainly a
win-win-win,
Yes, I am already buying up power plants and coal mines.
even if you refuse to make any h2o2
Only because there is no point to it.
(seems you'd just as
soon outlaw the makings of h2o2).
Why outlaw something that's uneconomic, pointless and stupid? No one
will do it because there's no point - except maybe as a specialty
energy source - iike small MEMs based power supplies - we've already
been over this many many times.> ~ BG
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